Has Tim Southee "arrived"?

[SteveNZ]

If these pitches were so flat the ball wouldn't be doing so much. I am willing to bet the pitches NZ produced for SA last year were flatter than this. They certainly couldn't make the ball do so much in that series.

Southee is a swing bowler. The methods of his wicket-taking in recent times have been through the air, not off the seam. In the latest Test, we scored 412 before Southee took his 5-for. In India, prior to his seven-for, we managed 360 odd and runs weren't that hard to come by. So I'd challenge you to belittle his achievements by saying they were on green seamers. Colombo in particular was a road. Not a Perth road, but a road.

He's a completely different bowler than the one that played SA last summer. Sure, he'll find bigger tests in all meanings of the word over the next six months but those who have watched his career closely can see that he is up to it, and that his form over the last six months suggest he is a genuine world-class bowler.

 

[Inferno]

Southee is a swing bowler. The methods of his wicket-taking in recent times have been through the air, not off the seam. In the latest Test, we scored 412 before Southee took his 5-for. In India, prior to his seven-for, we managed 360 odd and runs weren't that hard to come by. So I'd challenge you to belittle his achievements by saying they were on green seamers. Colombo in particular was a road. Not a Perth road, but a road.

He's a completely different bowler than the one that played SA last summer. Sure, he'll find bigger tests in all meanings of the word over the next six months but those who have watched his career closely can see that he is up to it, and that his form over the last six months suggest he is a genuine world-class bowler.

I am not saying they were green seamers at all. All I said was these weren't as flat of a pitch as its being made out to be. That doesn't mean I'm saying they were easy conditions for bowling though.

Colombo wasn't a road. In the game you played against SA in Dunedin last year in which Southee was crap you got 273 and 137/2 against Steyn and co. earlier this year. In fact the only reason you didn't get to 300+ in the first dig was because your batsmen failed to convert their starts and gave it away which is not uncommon for NZ. Anyways, I would certainly consider that equally and if not more hard than scoring 400 once against SL where your main bowler is Herath.

If you want to see a genuine road look at Adelaide.

 

[Bahnz]

I am not saying they were green seamers at all. All I said was these weren't as flat of a pitch as its being made out to be. That doesn't mean I'm saying they were easy conditions for bowling though.

Colombo wasn't a road. In the game you played against SA in Dunedin last year in which Southee was crap you got 273 and 137/2 against Steyn and co. earlier this year. In fact the only reason you didn't get to 300+ in the first dig was because your batsmen failed to convert their starts and gave it away which is not uncommon for NZ. Anyways, I would certainly consider that equally and if not more hard than scoring 400 once against SL where your main bowler is Herath.

If you want to see a genuine road look at Adelaide.

Colombo was very flat. You only had to look at how difficult wicket taking was after the first 20 odd overs, to realise that. As soon as the shine wore off, wicket taking became extremely difficult for both teams, even against lower order batting (Randiv batted for nearly 3 hours on day 3 without difficulty, but looked utterly clueless once the new ball was taken). The bounce was modest and predictable, and there was very little sideways movement on offer. It was a definite road, though I agree the tracks at Adelaide and Perth (at least from day 2 onwards) were even better for batting.

 

[Flem274*]

Colombo was a complete road. You must have been watching a different match.

Anyway, how else do you think we scored 400?

 

[Bahnz]

Southee's record since the SRL series

47 wickets at 24.68 apiece, with a strike rate of 52.50 and an economy rate of 2.81. Yup I'd say he's arrived. The next question is how good will he become.

yeah but that period just coincides perfectly for Southee, doesn't it? I mean, it gives him the SL series in which he averaged 13 or something ridiculous, and probably cuts off one or two of Steyn and Philander's more exceptional performances.

I don't think you can go much earlier than that though, because he was just a completely different bowler before he turned up for the WI series. His arm action was low and slingy, his control was poor, he wasn't generating swing - all things that categorised the 2009-2011 phase of his career. And 20 months is a decent period of time to allow for peaks and troughs in form.

 

[Spark]

That's just being too clever by half though, just happening to pick a period that works perfectly for this bowler and cuts out a bunch of really good performances for the competitors. You can base it on cricketing logic, but then you have to apply that consistently and doing that I, personally, don't think you can make an argument that Southee is really all that close to Philander/Steyn/Harris at all and I'd still put Broad ahead. Broad is an odd case because he is a bit of a wrecking ball, but for since 2011 he's been a surprisingly consistent wrecking ball when fit.

 

[hendrix]

That's just being too clever by half though, just happening to pick a period that works perfectly for this bowler and cuts out a bunch of really good performances for the competitors. You can base it on cricketing logic, but then you have to apply that consistently and doing that I, personally, don't think you can make an argument that Southee is really all that close to Philander/Steyn/Harris at all and I'd still put Broad ahead. Broad is an odd case because he is a bit of a wrecking ball, but for since 2011 he's been a surprisingly consistent wrecking ball when fit.

yeah that's what I think, except I would be putting him ahead of Broad.

 

[Spark]

Yeah it's something you could argue, but I just think Broad adds a bit more to the attack and doesn't lose much by comparison in the areas where Southee has the edge.

Plus, having a bowler who can repeatedly and single-handedly win you a Test match is an incredible asset.

 

[Bahnz]

Broad is an odd case because he is a bit of a wrecking ball, but for since 2011 he's been a surprisingly consistent wrecking ball when fit.

That's just being too clever by half though, just happening to pick a period that works perfectly for this bowler and cuts out a bunch of really good performances for the competitors. You can base it on cricketing logic, but then you have to apply that consistently and doing that I, personally, don't think you can make an argument that Southee is really all that close to Philander/Steyn/Harris at all and I'd still put Broad ahead.

Why not though? Southee produces big swing, with wonderful control. He's got a well disguised off-cutter, a surprisingly sharp bouncer and a fantastic cricket brain. I've already conceeded that his old ball bowling is not in the class of Steyn/Harris, but otherwise he's a wonderful bowler. He's produced a string of exceptional performances against several strong batting lineups. He's certainly not a green track bully. Barring the Lord's test and the pre-Christmas Basin test, he's bowled almost exclusively on absolute belters. And while Boult is an excellent bowler, he doesn't provide as strong or as consistent support to Southee as Philander does for Steyn or Johnson does for Harris.

 

[Ruckus]

gonna have nightmares tonight...

 

[Spark]

Why not though? Southee produces big swing, with wonderful control. He's got a well disguised off-cutter, a surprisingly sharp bouncer and a fantastic cricket brain.

So does Broad, though (perhaps maybe less consistently on the cricket brain bit). That's my point. What Southee gives me over Broad is more or less a better outswinger/inswinger whilst Broad over Southee gives me aggression, variety, bounce, more seam movement and just flat-out matchwinning ability.

 

[hendrix]

If he gets to Harris/Steyn levels that would be phenomenal, but he's nowhere near there yet. It takes far more than 2 good years of bowling to be at that level.

 

[Bahnz]

Well, Harris' career pretty much comes up to 2 years when you cobble it all together, so I'm not sure whether he's the best example to use. Anyway, I'm not trying to say that Southee is as good as any of the big 4, my original post just stated that since he returned to side post his axing against SA, he's compared very favourably with anyone save Johnson (and to a lesser extent Harris).

Agreed though that Southee will need to push forward with his performances over an extended period to really stake his claim. I honestly think given the way he's bowled since his comeback that he should finish his career as New Zealand's second greatest bowler ever (provided injury doesn't get him).

 

[hendrix]

So does Broad, though (perhaps maybe less consistently on the cricket brain bit). That's my point. What Southee gives me over Broad is more or less a better outswinger/inswinger whilst Broad over Southee gives me aggression, variety, bounce, more seam movement and just flat-out matchwinning ability.

yeah this is true but they perform different roles in their team. Southee wouldn't be as useful as Broad is in England's attack because Anderson basically does the same thing as Southee. Broad wouldn't be particularly useful in Australia's attack because they already have plenty of aggression, bounce and seam movement.

What's been exciting just recently (literally only just in the Eden Park test) was seeing Southee able to hit a McGrath length consistently once the ball had stopped moving. If he can add those skills he'll be much better rounded than he is at the moment.

 

[Spark]

yeah this is true but they perform different roles in their team. Southee wouldn't be as useful as Broad is in England's attack because Anderson basically does the same thing as Southee.

What's been exciting just recently (literally only just in the Eden Park test) was seeing Southee able to hit a McGrath length consistently once the ball had stopped moving. If he can add those skills he'll be much better rounded than he is at the moment.

Yeah that's true. Still, Broad would walk into every attack in the world (including NZ's) except SA's (unless some brave soul wanted to pick him over Morkel) and maybe ours (I probably would).

Southee... I'm not so sure you can say the same, for the reasons you explain. He's more of a new ball bowler and those are slightly easier to find.

 

[ohnoitsyou]

Only teams Southee wouldn't make are SA and Aussie and Broad vs Siddle/Patto is 50/50

 

[ohnoitsyou]

When Southee was bowling his spell to Kohli in the first test that he was the 3rd best bowler in the world. When he's on song i stand by my word.

 

[Bahnz]

Only teams Southee wouldn't make are SA and Aussie and Broad vs Siddle/Patto is 50/50

I'm not even entirely sure that I wouldn't pick Southee ahead of Siddle in an Oceania team. Australia have tended to bowl Johnson in short and sharp bursts, so there's definitely room for a proper swing bowler. Probably would stick with Sidds though.

 

[Spark]

Oh I forgot that England's third seamers had all turned to poo, never mind.

I'm not even entirely sure that I wouldn't pick Southee ahead of Siddle in an Oceania team. Australia have tended to bowl Johnson in short and sharp bursts, so there's definitely room for a proper swing bowler. Probably would stick with Sidds though.

Nah having Harris there means Southee is a bit surplus to requirements.

 

[benchmark00]

Moderators - I would like my last infraction to be reversed please.