***Official*** India in New Zealand 2013/14

[Blocky]

Granted.
The point is that he just hasn't taken that many wickets, and the fact that the majority of his wickets have been in the top 7 doesn't register anything when he's taken so few wickets at such a high average. He's taking well below 2 wickets per innings. Even if we consider that a top 7 batsman will value his wicket more, if he's going to take 1.75 wickets per innings there's a good chance that it'll be from the top order (not that a number 7 is a top order batsman but whatever).

39 in 12 matches is actually a better strike rate of wickets per test than most NZ seamers in the past few years, remembering how many occasions we don't get to bowl more than once at the opposition. If you look at the composition of Southee and Boult, both of them have mopped up tails in the past on route to gaining bagfuls of wickets. Wagner's usual performance is about 2 for 75 having taken no lower order wickets, he very rarely gets a chance against the tail and in the most recent series, Sodhi was being thrown the ball for confidence rather than trying to rip the tail end out.

Gillespie is the best option not in the squad in my view, because he has a history of performance at international cricket (i.e he's shown he can do it) and he's in one of his best domestic spells, but he'll play a game or two before being invalided, that just seems to be his lot in life.

 

[Blocky]

Also, the bulk of those 31 wickets have come against Top 4 players, which is why players like Trott, Pietersen, Cook and Bell appear on his "most dismissed" list, and the other thing to note is that he's progressively gotten better every season in terms of performance, he's taken wickets at 32 so far this season - like I say, he's a bagful away from repaying the praise and he's shown enough when his rhythm is there and in the players he has troubled and then dismissed to indicate he's probably not too many innings away from a break through performance.

This is twenty years of representative cricket as a pace bowler and being thankful to many third seamers along my career who had the ability to winkle out the top players in the opposition while I went on and collected most of the tail due to pace. So I appreciate the value of a Wagner in the side, and can see why Boult and Southee love having him in there, as well as McCullum.

 

[RxGM]

In the Hamilton case, the loss was much more a product of New Zealand's 1st innings collapse against the seamers. And once again, Hamilton has always been New Zealand's most spin friendly surface since it's post-2005 rebirth.

Yea the seamers and batsman set it up but Singh finished it off and had a pretty good tour all round. Generally though I agree with your main point spinners like Rehman have chimed in with handy wickets but it has been the seamers who have run through us at home.

 

[Kippax]

.

The vault actually has all 18 Tests since Wagner debuted, atm.

vs. top five bats

Wagner

27/1052
Ave: 39.0
ER: 3.1

Boult

35/1175
Ave. 33.6
ER: 2.8

Southee

32/881
Ave: 27.5
ER: 2.6

Bracewell

13/845
Ave: 65.0
ER: 3.7

Anderson

9/137
Ave: 15.2
ER: 2.0

Williamson

10/544
Ave. 54.4
ER: 3.3

Sodhi

3/404
Ave: 134.7
ER: 3.8

 

[hendrix]

39 in 12 matches is actually a better strike rate of wickets per test than most NZ seamers in the past few years, remembering how many occasions we don't get to bowl more than once at the opposition. .

39 wickets in 22 innings. That's only innings in which he bowled.

less than 2 wickets per innings.

 

[hendrix]

This is twenty years of representative cricket as a pace bowler and being thankful to many third seamers along my career who had the ability to winkle out the top players in the opposition while I went on and collected most of the tail due to pace. So I appreciate the value of a Wagner in the side, and can see why Boult and Southee love having him in there, as well as McCullum.

This is the original point that this whole argument comes back to.

Wagner's role is absolutely critical. I have almost no doubt that Southee and Boult will take wickets. It's that we need Wagner to be consistently threatening and to pick up some difficult wickets. He needs to be much better than what he's shown so far in his test career.

 

[Blocky]

39 wickets in 22 innings. That's only innings in which he bowled.

less than 2 wickets per innings.

And again, two wickets per innings would be considered a leading bowler. Considering how rare it is to find pace bowlers who average four or more per test. So I don't see what point you're attempting to make?

 

[Blocky]

This is the original point that this whole argument comes back to.

Wagner's role is absolutely critical. I have almost no doubt that Southee and Boult will take wickets. It's that we need Wagner to be consistently threatening and to pick up some difficult wickets. He needs to be much better than what he's shown so far in his test career.

An average of 32 for this season and most of his wickets coming in the top order is fine by me. And fine by NZ selection by the looks of things. Wagner won't be the one who doesn't play both tests this series, Sodhi will.

 

[KiWiNiNjA]

You've forgotten to remove Bangladesh from his stats!!!!!!!

32 wickets @ 42.62
25/32 in the "top seven"

First rule of statistic, remove the minnows. It's very important.

 

[Blocky]

And as has been painfully pointed out time and time again

Wagner after 12 tests has 39 wickets at 37.

"But Southee was young and not fully matured as a pace bowler" - granted, but he had time to grow into the role and didn't actually start performing until well after his 20th test. Based on his progression of stats, Wagner is on track to be comparable to Southee's current average after his 20th test.

 

[Blocky]

You've forgotten to remove Bangladesh from his stats!!!!!!!

32 wickets @ 42.62
25/32 in the "top seven"

First rule of statistic, remove the minnows. It's very important.

Remove the minnows from Southee, Boult, Bond and Martin and they're all looking pretty sickly though.

 

[KiWiNiNjA]

Remove the minnows from Southee, Boult, Bond and Martin and they're all looking pretty sickly though.

I was only asking for consistency in your use of stats.

 

[hendrix]

Southee's only played one match against Bangladesh so I don't think removing that would do great harm to his stats.

 

[hendrix]

And as has been painfully pointed out time and time again

Wagner after 12 tests has 39 wickets at 37.

"But Southee was young and not fully matured as a pace bowler" - granted, but he had time to grow into the role and didn't actually start performing until well after his 20th test. Based on his progression of stats, Wagner is on track to be comparable to Southee's current average after his 20th test.

Southee was dropped.

 

[Blocky]

I was only asking for consistency in your use of stats.

Actually, my use of stats in the case of Guptill points out that he performs excessively well every ten or so innings and that number has been getting worse and worse throughout his career. He relies on not out, outliers that give him the semblance of a good average. In the case of Boult, you could argue that outliers against England and the Windies give him the same.

 

[Blocky]

Southee was dropped.

With a much worser average and relying on outlier performances than Wagner currently has. Wagner also got dropped need I remind you, worked his way back in the side and has performed better than he did initially. So?

 

[hendrix]

Actually, my use of stats in the case of Guptill points out that he performs excessively well every ten or so innings and that number has been getting worse and worse throughout his career. He relies on not out, outliers that give him the semblance of a good average. In the case of Boult, you could argue that outliers against England and the Windies give him the same.

Boult is a good bowler.

 

[hendrix]

With a much worser average and relying on outlier performances than Wagner currently has. Wagner also got dropped need I remind you, worked his way back in the side and has performed better than he did initially. So?

I don't recall Wagner being dropped from the test squad.

 

[Blocky]

Unquestionably, but his average has been helped out by a fair few tail end wickets, if my hotel room broadband wasn't so inconsistent I'd do the calculation again, but from memory, Boult has 38 out of 72 wickets from lower order players.

 

[Blocky]

I don't recall Wagner being dropped from the test squad.

He was dropped after the West Indies side, he only played one of the games against South Africa and if I recall correctly, also missed a game or two against England as Bracewell was favoured