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***Official*** India in New Zealand 2013/14

Blocky

Banned
Here we go again.

I don't rate Jadeja and Ashwin. Personally I think Ashwin is a poor spinner who's had a bit of a Mendis like impact and won't last long unless he makes dramatic changes. I don't think that either of them are as good as Herath, Ajmal or even Swann. Jadeja's peak would be around the Panesar level.

NZ has faced far better spinners than this pair over the last couple of years.

India's best spinner is Ojha, who would be a major threat, but India haven't even picked him in the squad.
The reason we didn't beat Bangladesh in Bangladesh wasn't their pace bowlers, and I'd dare say Jadeja and Ashwin equal any spinner in the Bangladesh side. NZ struggles against pace and movement - we're talking 140-145kmh bowlers who get consistent movement. It's why England destroyed us in England, it's why we're generally always competitive at home, it's why Australia (who didn't have any real pace in their unit) couldn't beat us in Hobart. Yadav just doesn't move the ball enough nor possess enough raw pace to trouble us, hence Tino Best version 2 - he won't do anything to us. Shami will take two wickets an innings on average at his best, which leaves Zak or whoever else they select - again, Zak of four to six years ago would rip us apart, Zak today? Not so much.
 

Bahnz

Hall of Fame Member
I call opinions the way I see them - if someone believes the Indian pace attack poses more problems to us than the Indian spin attack, that would seem to indicate they haven't paid any attention to the NZ side of the last 10 years.
Given how unproven India's spinners are outside of the subcontinent (Ashwin's away record is awful) and how spin-unfriendly New Zealand surfaces are (Wellington and Auckland in particular) I don't think it's at all ridiculous to suggest that India's pace battery will probably be more important to their hopes of victory than their spinners. Yes NZ's batsmen are weak against spin, but they've also generally played spin fairly comfortably on home soil in recent seasons. I struggle to remember the last time a spinner not called Warne or Murali played a significant role in an NZ home defeat.

Don't forget, that a couple of months after he outbowled Ashwin in the Ind-Eng series, Monty Panesar got utterly annhiliated in NZ. And I know it's a different game, but both Ashwin and Jadeja looked utterly impotent in the ODI's. We all know that neither of the two pitches are likely to break up much over the 5 days. And this New Zealand side still has pretty significant vulenerabilities against the swinging ball, something Anderson and Broad exposed at Lord's. If India are to win this series, they'll need the seamers to do most of the work.
 

hendrix

Hall of Fame Member
Yawn. Stats don't lie, unlike your opinions.
Stats? What stats? Where?

I'm honestly not that big on stats - I usually leave that up to others when I'm writing a paper - but even I think you should consider the null hypothesis here.
 

Bahnz

Hall of Fame Member
The reason we didn't beat Bangladesh in Bangladesh wasn't their pace bowlers, and I'd dare say Jadeja and Ashwin equal any spinner in the Bangladesh side. NZ struggles against pace and movement - we're talking 140-145kmh bowlers who get consistent movement. It's why England destroyed us in England, it's why we're generally always competitive at home, it's why Australia (who didn't have any real pace in their unit) couldn't beat us in Hobart. Yadav just doesn't move the ball enough nor possess enough raw pace to trouble us, hence Tino Best version 2 - he won't do anything to us. Shami will take two wickets an innings on average at his best, which leaves Zak or whoever else they select - again, Zak of four to six years ago would rip us apart, Zak today? Not so much.
Um, what? Pattinson was almost always in the 140-150 zone in that series, and Siddle was bowling a lot quicker than he does now too.
 

Blocky

Banned
Given how unproven India's spinners are outside of the subcontinent (Ashwin's away record is awful) and how spin-unfriendly New Zealand surfaces are (Wellington and Auckland in particular) I don't think it's at all ridiculous to suggest that India's pace battery will probably be more important to their hopes of victory than their spinners. Yes NZ's batsmen are weak against spin, but they've also generally played spin fairly comfortably on home soil in recent seasons. I struggle to remember the last time a spinner not called Warne or Murali played a significant role in an NZ home defeat.

Don't forget, that a couple of months after he outbowled Ashwin in the Ind-Eng series, Monty Panesar got utterly annhiliated in NZ. And I know it's a different game, but both Ashwin and Jadeja looked utterly impotent in the ODI's. We all know that neither of the two pitches are likely to break up much over the 5 days. And this New Zealand side still has pretty significant vulenerabilities against the swinging ball, something Anderson and Broad exposed at Lord's. If India are to win this series, they'll need the seamers to do most of the work.
Yes, I agree, India's spin bowlers outside of India haven't really covered themselves in glory, but remember that for many years, we've been the nation that spinners from the sub continent love to come over to and prove themselves - I'm talking about the struggles we've had with players like Saqlain Mushtaq who never really made it in test cricket, and how the Bangladeshi spinners always give us issues. Any knowledge of the way NZ generally bats would indicate they're at far greater risk of collapsing to a spin bowler than they are a pace bowler. We play pace ( up to 140kmh ) reasonably well these days. We don't play extreme pace well, we don't play spin at all well. That's changing slightly with Watling, Williamson and Taylor, but I'd still say if you look at players outside of those three, they're far more likely to collapse to spin bowlers than pace.

And Ashwin and Jadeja were statistically the best bowlers for India in the ODI series, so how are Shami, Yadav, Zaheer Khan and others suddenly going to turn up and perform better than that?
 

Blocky

Banned
Um, what? Pattinson was almost always in the 140-150 zone in that series, and Siddle was bowling a lot quicker than he does now too.
Starc and Siddle aren't what I'd consider true pace, Pattinson certainly was and duly took near ten wickets in the game. We also coughed up wickets to Lyon who I wouldn't consider any more threatening than Ashwin or Jadeja.
 

Mike5181

International Captain
Our problems against spin are so overstated these days.

Williamson, Taylor, Anderson, and Watling are all pretty good against it
 

Blocky

Banned
haha, Aus bowls us out for 150 and 226 and yet their bowlers are the reason they lost!
On a Hobart wicket that allowed Doug Bracewell to move it six inches off the seam with almost every delivery - and their batting unit was much stronger than ours.
 

Dan

Hall of Fame Member
The reason we didn't beat Bangladesh in Bangladesh wasn't their pace bowlers, and I'd dare say Jadeja and Ashwin equal any spinner in the Bangladesh side. NZ struggles against pace and movement - we're talking 140-145kmh bowlers who get consistent movement. It's why England destroyed us in England, it's why we're generally always competitive at home, it's why Australia (who didn't have any real pace in their unit) couldn't beat us in Hobart. Yadav just doesn't move the ball enough nor possess enough raw pace to trouble us, hence Tino Best version 2 - he won't do anything to us. Shami will take two wickets an innings on average at his best, which leaves Zak or whoever else they select - again, Zak of four to six years ago would rip us apart, Zak today? Not so much.
Yeah, but look at the conditions in Bangladesh - far more suited to spin bowling than NZ in general, and IIRC the pitches during that series were relatively flat but gave some assistance to the spinners. Shakib > Ashwin and Jadeja to begin with, let alone when the comparison is Shakib on a decent pitch for spin bowling compared to Ashwin and Jadeja on comparative greentops.

Ashwin is toothless away from home. No ability to beat the batsman in the air because of his action. He doesn't have the tricks of Narine either, and it's not like Narine has proven himself as a quality bowler in Tests on unhelpful surfaces (WW to rage). If he takes wickets, it will be through sheer weight of overs IMO.

Australia in Hobart were packing a Pattinson and a Starc. Given both operate between about 138 and 145 with their respective stock balls, and are both swing bowlers (Starc was getting nice shape into the right hander at 140 yesterday, ftr), I don't think you can say Australia was fielding a trio of medium pace plodders who didn't have the ability to generate pace or movement. Even Siddle can get it right up there when he wants to, and he was operating quicker in 2011 than he is now.

Saying Yadav and Best don't have raw pace is weird. It's legitimately what they get selected for - bowling 145km/h. Yadav has the better length and the ability to move the ball (though not necessarily on a consistent basis), plus is more intelligent. He's significantly better than Best, even if by no means a world-beater.

Zaheer's intelligent and experienced and shouldn't be written off. Even when unfit he was good enough to take wickets, and by the sounds of things he's in far better shape now. Even if he's not the bowler he once was, he's still good enough to take wickets. He's going to maul Rutherford, IMO.
 

Blocky

Banned
Both bowled their overs for around a 5 RPO rate, while everyone else not named Kumar who bowled near 10 overs a game went for 7. And before you say "They didn't bowl in the powerplay or death overs" - actually both of them did.
 

Dan

Hall of Fame Member
On a Hobart wicket that allowed Doug Bracewell to move it six inches off the seam with almost every delivery - and their batting unit was much stronger than ours.
You are really overstating our batting ability there.

Warner was in his 2nd Test and played a gem of a knock in the second dig, Hughes was shot, Khawaja was batting 3 FFS. Ponting was in his decline, Clarke yet to hit God mode, don't remember much about Hussey's form in that time period, and Haddin was hardly inspiring at the time.

The NZ unit didn't look all that great either at the time, so it was more a case of which batting line-up would fail more spectacularly.
 

Blocky

Banned
Yeah, but look at the conditions in Bangladesh - far more suited to spin bowling than NZ in general, and IIRC the pitches during that series were relatively flat but gave some assistance to the spinners. Shakib > Ashwin and Jadeja to begin with, let alone when the comparison is Shakib on a decent pitch for spin bowling compared to Ashwin and Jadeja on comparative greentops.

Ashwin is toothless away from home. No ability to beat the batsman in the air because of his action. He doesn't have the tricks of Narine either, and it's not like Narine has proven himself as a quality bowler in Tests on unhelpful surfaces (WW to rage). If he takes wickets, it will be through sheer weight of overs IMO.

Australia in Hobart were packing a Pattinson and a Starc. Given both operate between about 138 and 145 with their respective stock balls, and are both swing bowlers (Starc was getting nice shape into the right hander at 140 yesterday, ftr), I don't think you can say Australia was fielding a trio of medium pace plodders who didn't have the ability to generate pace or movement. Even Siddle can get it right up there when he wants to, and he was operating quicker in 2011 than he is now.

Saying Yadav and Best don't have raw pace is weird. It's legitimately what they get selected for - bowling 145km/h. Yadav has the better length and the ability to move the ball (though not necessarily on a consistent basis), plus is more intelligent. He's significantly better than Best, even if by no means a world-beater.

Zaheer's intelligent and experienced and shouldn't be written off. Even when unfit he was good enough to take wickets, and by the sounds of things he's in far better shape now. Even if he's not the bowler he once was, he's still good enough to take wickets. He's going to maul Rutherford, IMO.
No one really mauls Rutherford, mostly because Rutherford finds a constructive way to get himself out before any bowler can work him out.

As for your point on Narine - it kind of validates my point, you've got a bowler who has never done anything in test cricket, hasn't proven himself in test cricket however was the most trouble we faced against the Windies in the tests. He came out of that series (As he did the last time he played NZ in a test) with a restored reputation having taken a bagful of wickets against us for not many, despite being someone who hasn't shown the same ability against any other side in test cricket - which I'd also put in the Nathan Lyon category of taking wickets against us, at the point Lyon was at in his career, he was a "We don't have anyone else, why not him" selection - he's since shown a bit more quality but wouldn't call him world class.

Starc is quick, but slides the ball rather than gets bounce. When I think of pace bowlers who trouble NZ - it's either the relentless line and length bowlers, or bowlers capable of extracting bounce and movement off the wicket at a reasonable clip, someone like James Pattinson will always trouble us. Someone like Siddle will always be a pest for us, but we should handle a Starc style bowler relatively easily.

Yadav? I'd be surprised if he took wickets for less than 35. I think Shami will probably be in the 30-35 range, I think ultimately it will come down to Jadeja or Ashwin doing a Narine against us, because at the moment, our 3, 4 and 7 are as good as they've ever been and won't be troubled by any Indian pace bowler.

Go back to the West Indian series, which one bowler troubled us the most? An effective ODI player who had never really done anything at test level, except a performance he put in against New Zealand a few series previous - Sunil Narine wasn't even in the frame for selection initially, he played the third match and suddenly troubled us massively. We had no real issues with Tino Best, or Darren Sammy - we had issues with Sunil Narine.
 

Blocky

Banned
You are really overstating our batting ability there.

Warner was in his 2nd Test and played a gem of a knock in the second dig, Hughes was shot, Khawaja was batting 3 FFS. Ponting was in his decline, Clarke yet to hit God mode, don't remember much about Hussey's form in that time period, and Haddin was hardly inspiring at the time.

The NZ unit didn't look all that great either at the time, so it was more a case of which batting line-up would fail more spectacularly.
Warner vs Guptill? Give me Warner anytime of the year

Hughes scored runs against us in that series didn't he? and Ponting, Clarke and Hussey were practically always in God Mode against NZ. That pitch was an utter dog, we shot the Australian's out in that innings and it set up the match, 220 on that wicket batting last was always a massive issue.
 

Dan

Hall of Fame Member
Both bowled their overs for around a 5 RPO rate, while everyone else not named Kumar who bowled near 10 overs a game went for 7. And before you say "They didn't bowl in the powerplay or death overs" - actually both of them did.
They didn't bowl nearly as much at the death compared to Shami or Bhuvi (and Bhuvi still came out with a decent enough economy rate, all things considered). And economy in ODIs is hardly reflective of wickettaking abilities in Tests, as a lengthy list of medium pacers would attest.

Plus, Ashwin took, what, two wickets in the series? If you can't take wickets with the batsmen coming at you and trying to attack, then outfoxing them when they can wait for the bad ball becomes even harder.
 

Bahnz

Hall of Fame Member
Harbhajan Singh - 2008 - in Hamilton and almost in Wellington.
In the Hamilton case, the loss was much more a product of New Zealand's 1st innings collapse against the seamers. And once again, Hamilton has always been New Zealand's most spin friendly surface since it's post-2005 rebirth.
 

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