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India, Australia, England attempt to take control of Cricket

Muloghonto

U19 12th Man
you seem to misunderstand something. There would be no need to cut county cricket wages. The ECB does support county cricket by close to £50m but they hand out another 50 million to purely grass roots cricket. In a major crisis they could give their top 5 players another milion pound every year by cutting funding for grass roots just 10%. I dont think they should or would. But they could. Look at english premier league football clubs. they spend some 60-70% of income on salaries. The ECB spend some 10-20% . They dont have to spend more because the players cant go elsewhere. But if that changed, they might pay more and there is no way the IPL could compte and even if they could, the money would be so big already that it wouldnt entice players.
1. This grassroot fund is ultimately derived from Indian contribution to the ICC. No India = no extra money to spend
2. EPL has orders of magnitude greater income. Costs of running an enterprise are more or less fixed, even with massively inflated salaries of executives, after a certain point, the extra money is spent on real assets, aka players. The NFL spends over 60% of its revenue to players, the NHL just over 55%. Yet the NFL has oodles of money to spare, the NHL is barely making ends meet. How much of your income you can spend on players is totally dependent on total income. The percentages do not translate across the board for any income value. What England contributes to grassroot cricket can be diverted to their top players but as i noted, it is not a sustainable scenario. The IPL carrot is an indefinte one, which means eventually it is a matter of time before the ECB either kills cricket in England due to lack of grassroot investment or is forced to let its players play in the IPL.

Its a somewhat unrealistic theory that any business will automatically triple income in five years. I dont think thath happens for all. And the value of the IPL has probaby fallen over the last few years.
It is not any business, it is entertainment sports on a franchise model. I suggest you look up the numbers instead of just being a contrarian. A sporting league does not begin to max out its income potential till 15-20 years of existence. And if you think the value of the IPL has fallen, i am sorry to say this but you are completely out of your depth in this conversation. A startup sporting league that has not paid off its total investment cost but is still turning an operational profit and has for every single year of existence in its first five years is not dropping in value, it is barely beginning to scratch the surface. Especially in a market where it faces no competition from any other sport.


The NHL and otheramerican sports are differentin the sense that they make money at the grounds, not just from tv, which means they can make money playing lots of games all the time and the tv market is big enough for different games to be broadcast in different part at the same time. Not so,the IPL. They make next to no money at the grounds. All games must be on tv.
False. The NHL, like every single major sports league out there, makes over 70% of its income through tv rights. The NHL has nearly 30 teams. Of them less than 12 manage to sell out their season and about seven to eight teams (depending on the season) have less than 10% ticket sales.
If you think the Florida Panthers or the Phoenix Coyotes sell out a single game, you again, are talking out of your backside. This, despite their prime seat prices not exceeding $50.
 

Muloghonto

U19 12th Man
This simply isnt true. India wouldnt attract larger crowds than Australia or South africa and grounds are likely full for most others anyway. India are also not more valuable for a home tv deal than those countries. Only the overseas deal would drop. But thats still relativey small sums. But even if accepting your 50% for the sake of the argument, its hardly that significant for england if a few tests every four years dropped in value. A return to six matches in the ashes would likely solve that.
1. Please read the thread before jumping in. Ticket sales are irrelevant. You can sell out a stadium. Matters not.Those 40K fans in stadium are irrelevant. Tv rights generated by tens of millions watching are the relevant figure.

2. TV deal involving India has two components. Ie, broadcasting rights in England and broadcasting rights in India. Even if broadcasting rights in England stay the same for a visting India side versus the Aussies, the tv deal in India for India playing in England is worth about 10x more than the tv deal in Australia for Aussies visiting England.
This is where the real difference in money comes in. And if any of what you suggest were true (which they are not), the ECB/CA would not be bending over backwards to accomodate BCCI under a threat of BCCI pullout.
 

Muloghonto

U19 12th Man
Players do not equal fans.

You honestly think that 100% of Indian fans will shirk away from international cricket if India isn't present?
No, but 99% would if its international cricket not involving India overlapping with the IPL involving Indian players and overseas stars.

I honestly think that the future of cricket is akin to that of ice hockey.
In hockey, like in cricket, the North American market (NHL) earns about 65% of all hockey revenue (KHL is next, with 25%). The NHL represents about 60% of the fanbase of hockey. the international scene exists during the offseason of the NHL or is participated in by players from teams knocked out of the playoffs. The smaller market leagues, like the swedish league, finnish league, checz league etc. exists to serve as feeder league for the NHL.

This is what cricket should look like too, there is absolutely no reason to deny a more popular product in a much bigger market for an outdated product which only panders to traditionalism.
 

NasserFan207

International Vice-Captain
No, but 99% would if its international cricket not involving India overlapping with the IPL involving Indian players and overseas stars.

I honestly think that the future of cricket is akin to that of ice hockey.
In hockey, like in cricket, the North American market (NHL) earns about 65% of all hockey revenue (KHL is next, with 25%). The NHL represents about 60% of the fanbase of hockey. the international scene exists during the offseason of the NHL or is participated in by players from teams knocked out of the playoffs. The smaller market leagues, like the swedish league, finnish league, checz league etc. exists to serve as feeder league for the NHL.

This is what cricket should look like too, there is absolutely no reason to deny a more popular product in a much bigger market for an outdated product which only panders to traditionalism.
Except North America has all the best ice hockey players, whereas India doesn't...
 

Shri

Mr. Glass
The NHL and otheramerican sports are differentin the sense that they make money at the grounds, not just from tv, which means they can make money playing lots of games all the time and the tv market is big enough for different games to be broadcast in different part at the same time. Not so,the IPL. They make next to no money at the grounds. All games must be on tv.
The ticket prices are ****ing ridiculous for IPL games and you can't get them even if you could afford them due to demand. Not long before some grounds' seating plans get extended imo to make more money. And its irrelevant anyway. Money made by selling tickets to a few thousand fans is incomparable when you also sell it to hundreds of millions through media deals.
 
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harsh.ag

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Very interesting comments from all. I have a few to add as well, not that they should be taken to be well-informed since I have not been following this development at all:

1) The proposal makes 3 permanent members who cannot be "relegated", for lack of a better word. Relegates Bangadesh and Zimbabwe, and curtails their opportunities against the top ranked teams.

It also redistributes revenue towards the Big 3 boards. And assigns a maximum of 21.9% of the revenue to BCCI (according to cricinfo) (BUT future estimates will be flexible and that presents speculation about a future tussle given the power to be assigned to the Big 3). This is how distribution will be done. Current revenue is the first column, 1564 million

ICC revenue15002000225025002750300032503500
BCCI (Dist cost %)4.217.419.720.320.721.921.921.9
ECB (Dist cost %)0.93.84.34.44.54.74.84.8
CA (Dist cost %)0.62.32.62.72.82.92.92.9
Full Member surplus payment52.555.559.6256370.573.3578.9885.13
BCCI Dist cost63348443.25507.5569.25657711.75766.5
ECB Dist cost13.57696.75110123.75141156168
CA Dist cost94658.567.5778794.25101.5
Distribution cost (big three)85.5470598.56857708859621036
% additional revenue captured 108877365625754
Figures in millions

Makes room for Bilateral Agreements instead of FTP, with India trying to use its lesser known stadiums for test cricket, in a two-fold attempt, I am guessing, to deepen the roots of the game in India and to cut costs for test cricket which is not popular in India. One stone, two birds.

Also, implied guarantees on touring other countries have been made by the Big 3.

Importantly, creation of a proposed Executive Committee (ExCo) - a security-council style group with three permanent members, the BCCI, Cricket Australia and the ECB. "It will report to the ICC board, which will have the right to approve or reject its recommendations." The draft states that the ExCo will act as a "sole recommendation committee … on all constitutional, personnel, integrity, ethics, development and nominations matters".

2) It is true that most Indian cricket fans (I would guess around 97%) would not be nearly interested in watching other countries play test matches. However, I do think, if adequately advertised, a significant number (maybe around 20% or even more) can be persuaded to watch T20s and ODIs for Aus vs Eng vs SA vs Pak. That is anyway a large loss of the exchequer for all countries, as BCCI holds the cards on what the Indian fan really looks for, i.e. the Indian players. I know it sounds a bit hypocritical to say this even as I claim to be an international fan, but I know I am not most Indian cricket fans. Most of my good friends would stop watching, not all, but most. And these are the educated, well-off lot.

3) However, the draft proposal and the big 3 are adamant on one thing, namely - redistribution of the ICC central revenue being proportionate to the income generated through each member board. This amounts to a claim that the Boards of the respective countries are responsible for the revenue generated, which is, however you may put it, an outright false claim. The revenue comes through the fans, who are not the property of the BCCI. The broadcasting deals and contracts, however, (the lion's share of the revenue, as pointed out by others) are legally controlled by the BCCI, but in the capacity of fiduciary office-bearers representing the people of India. So, the question that arises now is: Is such a move beneficial for Indian cricket in the long run? I would like to hear some views on this.

4) Regarding IPL saturation - I see IPL becoming less important in terms of fervor, especially since the players are rotated between teams far too often to develop a proper long term fan following. Having said that, it will become very profitable in the years to come, as Mulog points out, for the same reasons he points out. As such, players from other countries, especially the poorer boards like WI, NZ, SL etc, will always be keen to flock to the IPL even at the expense of their international careers. Not the best players, but the ones required to maintain a healthy domestic structure in said countries. BCCI will remain a highly profitable body despite their actions and that is not clearly true for the others.

5) What can be done to thwart this Big 3 attempt at playing Big Brother?
i. The job falls to SA, Pak, WI, SL, since Bangladesh and NZ have already agreed.
ii. These are all less populated nations when compared to the big 3, which, of course, is part of the problem.
iii. Their response function will be dictated by what the big 3 do if the draft is rejected. BCCI has threatened to cancel their international arrangements post 2015 WC. I am not clear on what the other 2 think.
iv. I think the best way for these countries to act is to agree to the revenue distribution but make sure the ExCo has representation from all boards, and a constitution which guarantees funding to developement areas, and into the cash-strapped boards, and more investment in cricket structures around the world, especially more multi-team tournaments like test championships, T20 champions league getting participation from associate nations like happens in UCL in football.

Important Cricinfo excerpts:

At the top end, the dropping of the FTP merely reflects the unstated status quo. The ICC ought to have a role in defining and structuring competitions; indeed, it is hard to see what the point of the ICC is if not that. The MCC controls the laws.

However, any improvement in governance from the proposed reforms would rest on whether the big three govern sensibly and with some imagination regarding the development of the game. There is precious little evidence in the draft document to suggest they will.

The working paper trashes developmental work. There are complaints about administrative costs; of tournaments being run "without approval" (presumably the Division Three regional ones now scrapped); and of the costs of minor cricket, though it represents only a $20-30 million outgo on $1.5 billion in revenue. The cost of Associate and Affiliate cricket is inflated by including under it everything development-related, such as the women's World Cup, reserves and development funds. Any independence the development committee had is proposed to be reduced, and it is to be made subject to the F&CA committee.

There is an implied ownership of the local market. Clearly the representatives of the BCCI, the Indian team, are more marketable to the Indian public than other teams, but ICC events are organised and operated by the ICC, the business. Moreover, the money the ICC generates out of the World Cup is significantly higher than what India generates from a whole season of matches. That money should be cross-subsidising development initiatives, smaller tournaments, administration, and anything that grows cricket as an international sport. ICC revenue was already overly oriented towards funding members, and in turn, their professional programmes, instead of grassroots growth, infrastructure and development. The World Cricket League currently shuttles between a small handful of nations for lack of turf pitches and decent facilities.

Not only is ICC development funding being reduced, the 25% surplus has now been redefined to exclude the "distribution cost" that makes up almost a third of revenue in most scenarios. As the "distribution cost" is larger than the projected surplus, this represents roughly a halving of the Associate and Affiliate development payment for most revenue projections. Add in the Test fund (which will help the financially strapped Full Members with their challenges relating to "uneconomical or unfeasible tours"), also a cost, and the scrapping of subscriptions, which added to revenue, and the Full Members are getting an enormous increase in payments without giving anything back in return. Sometimes you just have to stand back and admire the sheer brazenness.

Cricket will survive it, but any notion of it growing into a global sport recedes. When investment is foregone for asset-stripping then it is time to sell your stock instead.
 

Energetic

U19 Cricketer
Will be the end of Cricket. I don't understand why teams in tier 2 who are countries but matches cannot be classified as official test games but only first class.
 

Muloghonto

U19 12th Man
Except North America has all the best ice hockey players, whereas India doesn't...
Its irrelevant, the NHL rules not because North America has the best hockey players, it rules because it has the biggest fan-base and hockey market. Regardless, North America does NOT have the best hockey players. Canada has the best hockey team but then again, demographic and Canadian involvement in hockey is far greater than any nation except Russia. Russians have just as good hockey players, except they fail to function as a team.

FYI, the person to've won the league MVP the most number of times in the last 20 years, is Ovechkin. A russian. He is also the guy to've won most scoring titles in the league in the last 20 years.
The person with the most points in the NHL active today is Jaromir Jagr- a Checz.
The person voted the most valuable defencemen in league history is Niklas Lidstrom, a Swede.
The person to've won the most Vezina trophy- the top goaltenders award in NHL for the last 30 years is one Dominik Hasek, also a Checz.
So much for your theory of 'NA has the best hockey players'.
 

Garson007

State Vice-Captain
The basic fact is, with the Troika at the top they can and will make any number of changes - including changing the revenue model. If anything this revenue sharing model is only in the draft, so that BCCI doesn't have to quibble with CA and ECB over it.
 

swede

U19 12th Man
1. This grassroot fund is ultimately derived from Indian contribution to the ICC. No India = no extra money to spend
2. EPL has orders of magnitude greater income. Costs of running an enterprise are more or less fixed, even with massively inflated salaries of executives, after a certain point, the extra money is spent on real assets, aka players. The NFL spends over 60% of its revenue to players, the NHL just over 55%. Yet the NFL has oodles of money to spare, the NHL is barely making ends meet. How much of your income you can spend on players is totally dependent on total income. The percentages do not translate across the board for any income value. What England contributes to grassroot cricket can be diverted to their top players but as i noted, it is not a sustainable scenario. The IPL carrot is an indefinte one, which means eventually it is a matter of time before the ECB either kills cricket in England due to lack of grassroot investment or is forced to let its players play in the IPL.



It is not any business, it is entertainment sports on a franchise model. I suggest you look up the numbers instead of just being a contrarian. A sporting league does not begin to max out its income potential till 15-20 years of existence. And if you think the value of the IPL has fallen, i am sorry to say this but you are completely out of your depth in this conversation. A startup sporting league that has not paid off its total investment cost but is still turning an operational profit and has for every single year of existence in its first five years is not dropping in value, it is barely beginning to scratch the surface. Especially in a market where it faces no competition from any other sport.




False. The NHL, like every single major sports league out there, makes over 70% of its income through tv rights. The NHL has nearly 30 teams. Of them less than 12 manage to sell out their season and about seven to eight teams (depending on the season) have less than 10% ticket sales.
If you think the Florida Panthers or the Phoenix Coyotes sell out a single game, you again, are talking out of your backside. This, despite their prime seat prices not exceeding $50.
re 1. , rubbish, do you really believe india fund english cricket? The ECB income has very little to do with anything from the ICC where they are net contributors through world cup rights for the UK going to the ICC and england receiving litte. Virtually all ECB income is derived from tv deals, match day income and sponsorships etc all for the cricket they stage themselves at home..

re. 2 of course its sustainable to spend you have in another way. england dont need to give fortunes to grass roots cricket. They dont need to stop either and they will not. There is no threat from the IPL. There cant be. They are nowhere near the kind of money that would entail. And again, even if they did, it wouldnt be enough to entice english or australian top players. When money gets big enough there are other things to consider for players.

Ok, does that mean that the recent start-up cricket league the ICL will the realise a gigantic potential in 20 years time as apparently all leagues do so?

I dont doubt that the american leagues make most from TV as does most others, but that hardly makes other forms of income irrelevant. You say 70% does that make 30% irrelevant. Strange the way american leagues insist on spending so much on good facilities. Have you forgot to tell them that its irrelevant..
 

swede

U19 12th Man
1. Please read the thread before jumping in. Ticket sales are irrelevant. You can sell out a stadium. Matters not.Those 40K fans in stadium are irrelevant. Tv rights generated by tens of millions watching are the relevant figure.

2. TV deal involving India has two components. Ie, broadcasting rights in England and broadcasting rights in India. Even if broadcasting rights in England stay the same for a visting India side versus the Aussies, the tv deal in India for India playing in England is worth about 10x more than the tv deal in Australia for Aussies visiting England.
This is where the real difference in money comes in. And if any of what you suggest were true (which they are not), the ECB/CA would not be bending over backwards to accomodate BCCI under a threat of BCCI pullout.
re 1, again simply not true, its baffling how you can just declare various forms of income irrelevant. LAst years ashes test at lords sold tickets worth £10m. For one match ( of that form of tha game you feel is outdated) black market tickets approaced £1000. Had Lords been bigger, one can only imagine the figure.

re 2. you are absolutely right. Overseas right for a home series against India dwarf other series. however, overseas rights in themselves are peanuts. some 85% of english tv rights are for their own market, but true the last 15 percent, made up of overseas rights rely heavily on india but an important part of 15% isnt really all that important.
 
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uvelocity

International Coach
im sure the economic worth of the indian cricket fan due to their multitude is somewhat offset by the buying power of the aus/eng/saf/nz cricket fan
 

swede

U19 12th Man
The ticket prices are ****ing ridiculous for IPL games and you can't get them even if you could afford them due to demand. Not long before some grounds' seating plans get extended imo to make more money. And its irrelevant anyway. Money made by selling tickets to a few thousand fans is incomparable when you also sell it to hundreds of millions through media deals.
well if you think £10 miion for a single test match is irrelevant, ok. If other grounds in england can keep up it could be close to £50 million in tickets for a 5-test ashes series. Hardly irrelevant. Its not that far off the total Tv rights of an IPL season.. and thats just ticket sales for 5 matches. of that outdated form of cricket.
The recent back-to-back melbourne and sydney tests featuring a world record crowd probably made some not quite irrelevant money as well.
 

brockley

International Captain
India wants an icc event every 2 years,i guess every icc event in india from now on,this is bogus.
Any chance we and nz will lose the world cup for 2015,its called compromise and i think Engalnd and Australia have bent over backwards.
 

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