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***Official*** Australia in South Africa 2013/14

Top_Cat

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Yeah but the funny thing is, both sides of the debate are right; he is the most talented/best bat outside of the side but his record for the past couple of years hasn't been bad, it's abysmal and he should not expect selection (and, from all reports, didn't). It's clearly not a pick on his numbers.
 

wiff

First Class Debutant
Yeah but the funny thing is, both sides of the debate are right; he is the most talented/best bat outside of the side but his record for the past couple of years hasn't been bad, it's abysmal and he should not expect selection (and, from all reports, didn't). It's clearly not a pick on his numbers.
They picked him on his drinking nous, and he is better than an Irish whiskey and cream based liqueur.
 

social

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Yeah but the funny thing is, both sides of the debate are right; he is the most talented/best bat outside of the side but his record for the past couple of years hasn't been bad, it's abysmal and he should not expect selection (and, from all reports, didn't). It's clearly not a pick on his numbers.
The worrying thing is that a guy with 13 years of mediocre fc cricket behind him is still being picked on potential

If you're going to adopt that strategy then surely Maddinson is the better pick as he is, IMO, equally as talented, has at least as good a technique and might mature over time

Unfortunately, the sample size with Marsh is more than large enough to conclude that, in all probability (and I'm talking like 99%) he may have one or 2 good knocks in him before returning to his crappy mean
 

Top_Cat

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That might be enough.

Personally I think it's a technique thing; I wonder whether the selectors reckon Hughes has the game to succeed against the SA quicks right now. Even if all Marsh does is score enough to win this series, he's probably done enough to justify the selection as opposed to taking a long-term view. Either that or, as Vic said, they think the 10 years of investment put into him will finally pay off.

Also, the long-term effects of failure on the team for Marsh vs Hughes at 3 might be different. If Marsh fails, no big thing, pick Hughes. If Hughes fails, it's a tougher problem to solve because they'd have to invest in someone again.

I dunno, could be reading too much into it.
 
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social

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Personally I think it's a technique thing; I wonder whether the selectors reckon Hughes has the game to succeed against the SA quicks right now. Even if all Marsh does is score enough to win this series, he's probably done enough to justify the selection as opposed to taking a long-term view.
I assume that is the case with Hughes

As I mentioned before, I have watched him a lot this season and he looks terrible even when scoring runs

I literally have no faith in him having success at test level anytime soon as he has regressed if anything

I could somewhat handle Marsh' selection (despite the fact that it sends a horrible message) if it is nothing more than as a paid tourist

If he actually gets selected for a test then it is nothing more than a Hail Mary from a desperate selection panel because it is preposterous to think that a guy who is barely good enough for FC cricket can score runs at test level
 

Top_Cat

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Yeah, 3 tons this year all on different grounds and he doesn't get a look-in. And they're probably right, all of that might mean nothing if he goes to SA and looks that way against Steyn et al.

This might be a bit of a random thought but I wonder whether the mental edge given to the oppo in how/when Hughes gets looks before getting out differs to Marsh. Get Marsh early, was a good ball or just not his day. Get Hughes out and he's often used up quite a few balls, looked terrible getting there and, perhaps, thrown a bit of panic into the rest of the line-up.
 

adub

International Captain
Look I can accept the desire to hold Hughes back. Don't agree with it, but can see the logic.

But that doesn't follow that Marsh should in anyway be near the Test team. If it were a case of playing a guy who might do well, but no big loss if he doesn't then Marcus North has done all that could be expected to volunteer for the post. Even White as another of the generation that much was expected of but delivered little has more than earnt a look before Sos.

ODI's and T20s, for sure. Has the game and has proven it at domestic level. Earned a spot. No problem at all with Marsh playing pyjama stuff, along with many others suited to shorter forms.

But Tests, no way the **** should have ever been selected, ever. The argument that this is as good a time to select him as any is based on the false premise that there could ever be a good time to select him. There isn't. It is a simple matter of equity and the unintended negative consequences of inequity. When guys who have year after year outperformed a hack like Marsh can't get a look in that has a detrimental effect on the entire Shield. Players will focus on what they see the selectors rewarding. If the selectors reward the accumulation of large amounts of runs in the toughest circumstances then that is what all the good young bats will know that is what they'll need to bust their arses to achieve. But if they see all you need to get noticed and indeed selected is some handsome shots and runs against a white ball then very few of them will bother with the hard work and will look for the short cuts. And who the **** could blame them? We all want to make it easy on ourselves if we can. People have mentioned Mad Dog. What message has this sent a player like him. It certainly isn't "son your 40 average and big shots ain't near enough, you have to knuckle down and stop throwing your wicket away for pretty 30s". Quite the opposite in fact. The message for him from this decision (and the earlier Bailey selection) is quite clearly force your way into the ODI team and you're 90% there, Shield runs don't matter a pinch of ****. That is a cancerous attitude and could easily infect our first class ranks (if it hasn't already).

That's why I'll always plump for the guys for have records that command respect over someone's objective opinion of how they look. When weight of fc runs/wickets gets you in/out of Test contention then everyone knows where they stand and everyone will try to improve their games in ways that will have the most chance of letting them succeed at the highest level. It's not a call for the 6 bats with the best Shield averages to be picked, but it automatically and rightly excludes long term underachievers like Marsh from ever being considered.

Hughes has earned by weight of runs the right to an extended and indeed multiple goes before pretty much anyone else. If someone in the Shield wants to change that then its simple for them - score more ****ing runs. When the guy who dominates the Shield can't get selected infront of a short form show pony who averages 12.8 batting in the top 4 this season and 25 overall since he was dropped after the 2nd worst series for a top order bat in Test history, then all Shield runs are devalued. How soon will it be until Finch is selected? It's a joke and it can't have good long term consequences.
 

Tangles

International Vice-Captain
Look I can accept the desire to hold Hughes back. Don't agree with it, but can see the logic.

But that doesn't follow that Marsh should in anyway be near the Test team. If it were a case of playing a guy who might do well, but no big loss if he doesn't then Marcus North has done all that could be expected to volunteer for the post. Even White as another of the generation that much was expected of but delivered little has more than earnt a look before Sos.

ODI's and T20s, for sure. Has the game and has proven it at domestic level. Earned a spot. No problem at all with Marsh playing pyjama stuff, along with many others suited to shorter forms.

But Tests, no way the **** should have ever been selected, ever. The argument that this is as good a time to select him as any is based on the false premise that there could ever be a good time to select him. There isn't. It is a simple matter of equity and the unintended negative consequences of inequity. When guys who have year after year outperformed a hack like Marsh can't get a look in that has a detrimental effect on the entire Shield. Players will focus on what they see the selectors rewarding. If the selectors reward the accumulation of large amounts of runs in the toughest circumstances then that is what all the good young bats will know that is what they'll need to bust their arses to achieve. But if they see all you need to get noticed and indeed selected is some handsome shots and runs against a white ball then very few of them will bother with the hard work and will look for the short cuts. And who the **** could blame them? We all want to make it easy on ourselves if we can. People have mentioned Mad Dog. What message has this sent a player like him. It certainly isn't "son your 40 average and big shots ain't near enough, you have to knuckle down and stop throwing your wicket away for pretty 30s". Quite the opposite in fact. The message for him from this decision (and the earlier Bailey selection) is quite clearly force your way into the ODI team and you're 90% there, Shield runs don't matter a pinch of ****. That is a cancerous attitude and could easily infect our first class ranks (if it hasn't already).

That's why I'll always plump for the guys for have records that command respect over someone's objective opinion of how they look. When weight of fc runs/wickets gets you in/out of Test contention then everyone knows where they stand and everyone will try to improve their games in ways that will have the most chance of letting them succeed at the highest level. It's not a call for the 6 bats with the best Shield averages to be picked, but it automatically and rightly excludes long term underachievers like Marsh from ever being considered.

Hughes has earned by weight of runs the right to an extended and indeed multiple goes before pretty much anyone else. If someone in the Shield wants to change that then its simple for them - score more ****ing runs. When the guy who dominates the Shield can't get selected infront of a short form show pony who averages 12.8 batting in the top 4 this season and 25 overall since he was dropped after the 2nd worst series for a top order bat in Test history, then all Shield runs are devalued. How soon will it be until Finch is selected? It's a joke and it can't have good long term consequences.
Nice post. I just read through the Sydney ODI thread and it makes me wonder if that one innings was enough to swing the selectors. Just crazy stuff. At least Bailey smashed India for a whole series.

I don't think Dools has done enough but **** me SMarsh sends a terrible message to young bats. At a time where I'd really like someone to put up Hayden numbers it devalues big innings.
 

Burgey

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Marsh was apparently told by the selectors on Saturday that he was in the squad for SA. So teh Sydney knock had nowt to do with it.
 

benchmark00

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I would back a knowledgeable person's eye over stats every single day of the week.

I think there's a reason why coaches exist, and it's not to read scorecards.
 

Tangles

International Vice-Captain
So non of his performances played a role? Just his status as SOS and his obvious class which has been missing in his years playing in the shield. I'd rather believe he was picked to knock back stubbies with Boof.
 

adub

International Captain
I would back a knowledgeable person's eye over stats every single day of the week.

I think there's a reason why coaches exist, and it's not to read scorecards.
knowledgeable person's eyes gave us Bailey.

knowledgeable person's eyes gave us Maxwell

knowledgeable person's eyes gave us Agar

and Doherty, and Beer, and Hastings, and Quiney and all the other ****ing stupid selections we've come up with over the last couple of years.

Everyone thinks they're a more knowledgeable person that they really are. Which explains the above decisions.

The game is smarter than all the knowledgeable eyes you can poke a stick in. The rare occasions the knowledgeable eye's pick one out of left field that come off are vastly outnumbered by the times they turn out to be duds. It comes off no more often than random chance would allow because largely that is all it is. Sticking with the numbers doesn't guarantee success on every occasion, but it greatly increases the odds. Coaches exist to try help players develop their abilities, not to delude themselves that the player in question is better than he really is.
 

Adders

Cricketer Of The Year
I dare say it was someones knowledgeable eye that decided to give Mitchell Johnson another crack at test cricket............certainly not many of us "experts" here thought it a good call.

Just saying......
 

adub

International Captain
I dare say it was someones knowledgeable eye that decided to give Mitchell Johnson another crack at test cricket............certainly not many of us "experts" here thought it a good call.

Just saying......
Which is the rare random chance that I referred to. No one ever doubted Mitch's potential to destroy, just that the odds weren't great that he wouldn't be just as like to destroy us. He proved the doubters wrong and good on him, but if jagging that call has emboldened Invers to go speculating on Marsh like they did on the other nuffies mentioned then we're in for a hard few years of seeing more crap selections justified by 'oh but we got MJ right'.
 

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