Third Name Listed for ATG XI

[smash84]

I simply took every year of Imran actual performance to break up his career. See how he performed each year.

Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo


1980 was the first year he averaged below 25 then he had a great run till 1986. In 1987 he played 10 tests with near 30 average. So his great run was over by 1986. That's what his performance shows. He played 10 tests in 1987. That's a very large sample size and he averaged near 30. I will treat 1988 with 3 tests as an aberration due to very small sample size specially when he didn't do great in previous 10 tests. You can't really count these 13 tests in his great run as a bowler. Clearly, 80-86 was a great run for him and he played 35 tests in that period. Sure, it will change by few tests due to finding exact months when he was great but it's not going to change much. 40% may become 45% if you find exact months.

About his batting average - Again, I was not debating the greatness of Imran as a player. I was only trying to speculate reasons for him being left out so often from those lists despite having that batting average. I am not sure why anyone will leave out a comparable gun bowler specially if he can contribute with bat as well. That seems very weird logic for any expert. You want to pick your strongest team. Trying to make teams stronger is the main reason Wasim makes it so often. Often a comparable bowler is left out and Wasim makes it because Wasim makes the team stronger due to additional factors. If Imran is seen as comparable to other top contenders in bowling then he should be the first choice due to his batting.Team will look stronger and that's the goal of picking those ATG XI. Many not seeing him as top 4-6 bowlers seems more rational explanation to me and that's why I was trying to see why he is not considered in top 4-6 by so many people.

Yep, many may not see him in top 5 bowlers and perhaps with good reason.

I really don't know what to make of your stats. In the stats you just posted below the years there are numbers for the seasons that he played. He played 15 seasons and averaged less than 25 in 10 of them. I do know that back in the late 70s, 80s and 90s the cricket season was taken from july to june and he does well in that. So what do I make of that?

 

[Agent Nationaux]

Quite true but it gets rectified when you dissect it bit more. Thanks for pointing it out. So if you include 2 more years he will get 10-15 more matches. Still not at the same level as some other top bowlers who maintained high standard for lot more games.

Going by records of all fast bowlers who visited Pakistan, it seem Pakistan had super flat wickets most of the time but still Imran ran riots on the same Pakistani wickets. He has probably the best records at home and those were flat wickets. I am not sure why it should change drastically for him for Indian flat wickets.

Ball Tampering.

 

[simonlee48]

Yep, many may not see him in top 5 bowlers and perhaps with good reason.

I really don't know what to make of your stats. In the stats you just posted below the years there are numbers for the seasons that he played. He played 15 seasons and averaged less than 25 in 10 of them. I do know that back in the late 70s, 80s and 90s the cricket season was taken from july to june and he does well in that. So what do I make of that?

Ok, let's try another approach. I saw one list earlier where some one had compiled a list of few great bowlers and how often they averaged 25+ in test series. Performing great in each series is probably a better reflection of how often some one contributed greatly with his bowling. Series is a better measure than years or seasons and most basic unit here. A bowlers contributing greatly in each series is going to help his team win test series consistently and that's what each team aims for.

I understand that Imran was not the same bowler for the first 5-6 years and didn't bowl much in last few years but when all said and done , we have few other bowlers who contributed greatly in test series very frequently for an extended period. I personally checked the stats for few bowlers and over all, it seems right on ball park. Since, you have to manually check it, It may have wrong count by 1 series here and there for some bowlers but it shouldn't change the relative standings by much.

******************************


Great Bowlers having 25+ average in test series


Ambrose: 5 out of 26 series - 19%

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Marshal: 6 out of 21 series - 28%

Pollock: 12 out of 39 Series - 30%

McGrath: 14 out of 42 series - 33%

Hadlee: 11 out of 33 series - 33%

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Donald : 12 out of 28 series - 42%

Wasim : 17 out of 40 series - 42%

Imran : 11 out of 24 series - 45%

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Waqar: 21 out of 38 series - 55%


I am not saying that experts will simply look at this and eliminate any bowler. I am pointing out that some experts are likely to opt for a bowler who helped his team more often in his career by contributing greatly with ball. Team is likely to do well if a bowler takes wickets below 25 in more test series. Does this convey what I was trying to say earlier?

 

[subshakerz]

I am not saying that experts will simply look at this and eliminate any bowler. I am pointing out that some experts are likely to opt for a bowler who helped his team more often in his career by contributing greatly with ball. Team is likely to do well if a bowler takes wickets below 25 in more test series. Does this convey what I was trying to say earlier?

I dont think the experts consider this at all, to be honest. Like I said, Imran not getting in is mostly due to the 1 allrounder only rule, and Sobers already has that locked.

 

[kyear2]

Honestly think that it's primarily because of his road record. Most international journalist/observers back them saw you primarily on overseas tours and on those occasions his record and performances were just not as great as they were at home. So in the instances where most are just looking for the best 3 fast bowlers, he wouldn't cut it, even factoring in his batting. He made Benaud's team primarily because he pre determined that he wanted two all rounders, probably partially because he too was a bowling all rounder.
Regarding the key one all rounder selected reason, that could also factor in because in that instance he would always loose out to Sobers, I just believe that of his bowling was strong enough in the minds of most jurors, he still would have made more teams regardless of the all rounder tab.

 

[simonlee48]

Honestly think that it's primarily because of his road record. Most international journalist/observers back them saw you primarily on overseas tours and on those occasions his record and performances were just not as great as they were at home.

Possibly true. Imran has 25+ series average in 8 out of 14 test series on road where he bowled. That's around 60% of his tours. I didn't count the test series with one test and another where he didn't bowl. I guess , international journalists/observers remembering how well you do in each test series on road has some merit. It's going to create an impression because they are going to remember away performances lot more than what Imran did at home.

Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

I dont think the experts consider this at all, to be honest.

I didn't meant that experts will literally sit down and count sub 25 average. As a bowler you are likely to add certain impression in memory banks if you do well consistently.

 

[harsh.ag]

Perfect pace attack - Marshall, Wasim and McGrath. Can't get better, not possible. Can get equal (by having Lillee, Imran, Ambrose etc), but not better. Amazing variety there.

Based on strike rates, the pace attack which will bowl out the opposition quickest would probably be - Steyn, Waqar and Bond. Philander to replace Waqar if he keeps it up.

 

[The Battlers Prince]

Perfect pace attack - Marshall, Wasim and McGrath. Can't get better, not possible. Can get equal (by having Lillee, Imran, Ambrose etc), but not better. Amazing variety there.

Based on strike rates, the pace attack which will bowl out the opposition quickest would probably be - Steyn, Waqar and Bond. Philander to replace Waqar if he keeps it up.

My first instinct was no, surely someone like Barnes could fit in and make a difference. But honestly I think you've got it right. There may be others who could do the job almost as well but I think those 3 are hard to beat. Very smart bowlers as well.

 

[smash84]

I guess we all knew the results of this survey on CW.....there isn't a clear cut 3rd name for the ATXI here on CW

 

[Agent Nationaux]

Greatest bowling attack for me would be:

Waqar - can easily replace Marshall
Lillee - Can easily replace McGrath
Wasim - No one can replace him

 

[watson]

Greatest bowling attack for me would be:

Waqar - can easily replace Marshall
Lillee - Can easily replace McGrath
Wasim - No one can replace him

Apart from Davidson

 

[Agent Nationaux]

Not when it comes to Reverse Swing

 

[Agent Nationaux]

With Waqar, Lillee and Wasim you get two ATG new ball bowlers and 2 ATG old ball bowlers.

 

[watson]

Not when it comes to Reverse Swing

In Davidson's era they used the term "going Irish" rather than Reverse Swing. Davidson did bowl Reverse Swing, and he clean bowled none other than Garry Sobers with such a delivery;

Alan Davidson: 'The only way you learn to bowl is to bowl' | Cricinfo Magazine | ESPN Cricinfo

 

[Agent Nationaux]

But Wasim was better and had mastery over it.

 

[watson]

But Wasim was better and had mastery over it.

He probably was. But Davidson had a beautiful in-swinger - so swings and roundabouts really.

 

[Agent Nationaux]

Wasim was equally gifted with the new ball. But anyway, Lillee, Wasim and Waqar are the dream team. With Lillee and Wasim you get the perfect new ball bowling partnership (left right combo as well) and with Wasim and Waqar you get an equally good old ball bowling partnership (again left right combo).

 

[Unomaas]

Such a hard poll but I eventually chose Hobbs. Of all the batter positions, the opener is most probably the only specialist position in the whole game and requires a certain skill set to accomplish. Alot of people will point out specialist wicket keepers to me but I'm sure it hasn't escaped your notice that nowadays, everyone seems to be a reserve wicket keeper. After having seen Hashim Amla stand WK for SAF, I'm convinced that there is a wicket keeper in every cricketer just dying to express themselves!

For me, the specialist opener can theoretically bat anywhere, other batsmen can't. Given Hobb's proficiency in this opener position, he stands head above his peers in re-affirming the importance of getting the innings off to a good start and protecting the middle order from that new ball.

I wasn't particularly interested in choosing a bowler because their is no significant measure that separates the top 10 bowlers. All of them could most probably get the job done.

While Gilchrist's batting sure does entertain, his claim to being the preeminent wk of the ages is doubtful. Besides, I would rather balance my team choosing the wicket keeper last and so choose a wicket keeper based on whether the team needed more batting re-enforcement or not i.e., choose a specialist wk or batting wk.

 

[kyear2]

Greatest bowling attack for me would be:

Waqar - can easily replace Marshall
Lillee - Can easily replace McGrath
Wasim - No one can replace him

Is this the same Wasim who averaged less than 4WPM, had a staggeringly high proportion of lower order wickets, had a career strike rate over 54 and never once in his career was the top rated bowler in the world?

Good to know that Waqar can easily replace Marshall though. Realistically speaking the only bowler who can challenge Marshall and his skill set was Lillee and he didn't get the opportunity or just didn't prove himself over the world in different conditions like Marshall did.
The perfect opening foil for MM (and bowling into the wind) would be McGrath or my recent preferred option Barnes. McGrath's record dwarfs Barnes, but in selecting an ATG attack there should be some representation from the earlier eras and Barnes had as complete a skill set as any and was adaptable to any environment.
To handle the old ball, even though Wasim had his bag of tricks and unplayable deliveries and the LH variety Imran was the better bowler especially in his prime and brings more to the team as an old ball bowler than his other competition Garner, with his reverse swing.
So for me

Marshall- No one can replace him, Lillee comes closest then possibly Steyn and Holding
McGrath- Barnes/Ambrose/Hadlee not far behind (especially Barnes) and in that order
Imran- Wasim- Garner. Closest contest, Imran just pipps it, Wasim though is more talented and Garner potentially more dangerous

 

[Agent Nationaux]

Is this the same Wasim who averaged less than 4WPM, had a staggeringly high proportion of lower order wickets, had a career strike rate over 54 and never once in his career was the top rated bowler in the world?

Good to know that Waqar can easily replace Marshall though. Realistically speaking the only bowler who can challenge Marshall and his skill set was Lillee and he didn't get the opportunity or just didn't prove himself over the world in different conditions like Marshall did.
The perfect opening foil for MM (and bowling into the wind) would be McGrath or my recent preferred option Barnes. McGrath's record dwarfs Barnes, but in selecting an ATG attack there should be some representation from the earlier eras and Barnes had as complete a skill set as any and was adaptable to any environment.
To handle the old ball, even though Wasim had his bag of tricks and unplayable deliveries and the LH variety Imran was the better bowler especially in his prime and brings more to the team as an old ball bowler than his other competition Garner, with his reverse swing.
So for me

Marshall- No one can replace him, Lillee comes closest then possibly Steyn and Holding
McGrath- Barnes/Ambrose/Hadlee not far behind (especially Barnes) and in that order
Imran- Wasim- Garner. Closest contest, Imran just pipps it, Wasim though is more talented and Garner potentially more dangerous

I'll admit Marshall was greatest, but If I am to pick someone for a match, I'd rather pick the guy who had the greatest peak ever. Wasim on the other hand fits in comfortably because he was the most skilful/complete fast bowler of all time and is a leftie.