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Should go if this is true
**** it, he should go anyway after 5-0 and arguably one of the biggest team meltdowns in sports history
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Andy Flower...considering his future?
- Thread starter Mark68
- Start date
**** it, he should go anyway after 5-0 and arguably one of the biggest team meltdowns in sports history
BoyBrumby
Englishman
Sadly it does have an air of verisimilitude.
Have history, don't they? Even leaving aside 2012, KP issued a similar ultimatum when he was skipper under Moores. He also wanted Flower (then the batting coach, if memory serves) out with the head coach.
There is no point dropping any of Cook, Bell or Pietersen because, as Trescothick said on the Ashes Verdict on Monday, they'd go back to CC and dominate to a stupid extent. They're better than the alternatives.
I am a Flower fan, but all coaches have shelf lives with teams and it could be he's reached his.
Have history, don't they? Even leaving aside 2012, KP issued a similar ultimatum when he was skipper under Moores. He also wanted Flower (then the batting coach, if memory serves) out with the head coach.
There is no point dropping any of Cook, Bell or Pietersen because, as Trescothick said on the Ashes Verdict on Monday, they'd go back to CC and dominate to a stupid extent. They're better than the alternatives.
I am a Flower fan, but all coaches have shelf lives with teams and it could be he's reached his.
GIMH
Norwood's on Fire
Flower has come out and denied he's given an ultimatum as well
Whatever the truth, it's pretty obvious the England dressing room is rotten. New faces are needed.
Old ones too though. Cook, Bell and KP must be in the team unless they really can't score any runs at the start of the season.
Whatever the truth, it's pretty obvious the England dressing room is rotten. New faces are needed.
Old ones too though. Cook, Bell and KP must be in the team unless they really can't score any runs at the start of the season.
Adders
Cricketer Of The Year
Based on what? His ability to unite the team and dressing room harmony?
I'm seeing this suggested too often here and it beggars belief.
KP's actions in warm up games are true though he acts as if they are above him and just slogs. Although obviously no idea if the subject has been brought up. Paul Newman is a tabloid hack, but he is well connected (Nasser's his kids godfather) so no smoke and all that.
He is also very well connected with Essex, so wouldn't surprise me if he had something of a direct line to Flower.
He is also very well connected with Essex, so wouldn't surprise me if he had something of a direct line to Flower.
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The reason it should be all over for KP is that it's pretty clear now that he's nowhere near as special as he thinks he is. A player who is clearly inferior to the elite of the game - Sanga, Amla, Clarke and (now) de Villiers. Were he performing consistently at a level at which he could be bracketed with these players, or even just below them, then his team mates might be able to tolerate his overbearing behaviour, even if they didn't have much time for it. But a look at his performances over the past four or five years suggest that it's not a question of "form" here or "slump" there; the reality is he's just not that good.
Pietersen's performances in this series pretty much sum up where he is at this stage of his career. A batsman in the mould of the Black Caps' Taylor or McCullum who can play the occasional telling knock, but who lacks the consistent ability to take an attack apart that he once had, and who is now struggling to adapt - probably as a result of ego rather than lack of wit. Because it's so wilful, this refusal to adapt frequently makes him look utterly ridiculous. Anyone who's seen a 'lowlight reel' of KP's dismissals in this series would struggle to make a case that he is mentally in any better shape than Trott at this point. Crazy shot after crazy shot steered straight down the throats of fielders who'd been deliberately placed there by the opposing skipper. Tufnell is right - he's not a great batsman and will not be remembered as such. Willis and others have also come to share the opinion that I expressed after Melbourne - that he needs to go for the good of the team.
What particularly infuriated me there - and I posted to this effect at the time - was the massive and totally unjustified arrogance implicit in the calculated snub Pietersen made to Broad when the latter came in to bat and he promptly got out calypso slogging for 71, as if to say "the bunnies are now in, I might as well hit out". As I pointed out at the time, he had not - either in that particular innings in which he'd been tied down by accurate bowling for long periods and had been dropped on a number of occasions, or at any other stage in the series - earned the right to play that kind of shot against Johnson, Harris, Siddle and co. Broad is/was more than capable of holding an end up and helping him to a 50 or even hundred-plus partnership. And the way he batted in the very next Test in which he was England's top scorer, while Pietersen twice failed miserably, underscored the point whilst highlighting the self-defeating consequences of Pietersen's determination to "show up" one of his perceived dressing room enemies.
The KP nuthuggers on here who promptly chided me for criticizing their hero - apparently, Broad is a de facto bunny, and KP was perfectly justified in treating him as if he were Courtney Walsh with the bat - can't have it both ways. If Broad is a latter-day Walsh, what on earth does that make KP based on their respective showings in the very next Test? It's bad enough to be a specialist batsman who fondly imagines himself to be one of the best in the world yet can only average 29 in career-defining series like this Ashes contest. Even worse to be shown up so miserably in the very next Test match by the very no. 8 you've just attempted to humiliate by treating him as a bunny, and who for good measure ends up averaging a mere 9 runs less than you per innings for the series. I think England should call time on this conceited and divisive figure who on recent performances barely warrants a place in the side anyway. I for one will always treasure the memory of a number of exhilarating knocks by a KP in his pomp c. 2005-2009.
Pietersen's performances in this series pretty much sum up where he is at this stage of his career. A batsman in the mould of the Black Caps' Taylor or McCullum who can play the occasional telling knock, but who lacks the consistent ability to take an attack apart that he once had, and who is now struggling to adapt - probably as a result of ego rather than lack of wit. Because it's so wilful, this refusal to adapt frequently makes him look utterly ridiculous. Anyone who's seen a 'lowlight reel' of KP's dismissals in this series would struggle to make a case that he is mentally in any better shape than Trott at this point. Crazy shot after crazy shot steered straight down the throats of fielders who'd been deliberately placed there by the opposing skipper. Tufnell is right - he's not a great batsman and will not be remembered as such. Willis and others have also come to share the opinion that I expressed after Melbourne - that he needs to go for the good of the team.
What particularly infuriated me there - and I posted to this effect at the time - was the massive and totally unjustified arrogance implicit in the calculated snub Pietersen made to Broad when the latter came in to bat and he promptly got out calypso slogging for 71, as if to say "the bunnies are now in, I might as well hit out". As I pointed out at the time, he had not - either in that particular innings in which he'd been tied down by accurate bowling for long periods and had been dropped on a number of occasions, or at any other stage in the series - earned the right to play that kind of shot against Johnson, Harris, Siddle and co. Broad is/was more than capable of holding an end up and helping him to a 50 or even hundred-plus partnership. And the way he batted in the very next Test in which he was England's top scorer, while Pietersen twice failed miserably, underscored the point whilst highlighting the self-defeating consequences of Pietersen's determination to "show up" one of his perceived dressing room enemies.
The KP nuthuggers on here who promptly chided me for criticizing their hero - apparently, Broad is a de facto bunny, and KP was perfectly justified in treating him as if he were Courtney Walsh with the bat - can't have it both ways. If Broad is a latter-day Walsh, what on earth does that make KP based on their respective showings in the very next Test? It's bad enough to be a specialist batsman who fondly imagines himself to be one of the best in the world yet can only average 29 in career-defining series like this Ashes contest. Even worse to be shown up so miserably in the very next Test match by the very no. 8 you've just attempted to humiliate by treating him as a bunny, and who for good measure ends up averaging a mere 9 runs less than you per innings for the series. I think England should call time on this conceited and divisive figure who on recent performances barely warrants a place in the side anyway. I for one will always treasure the memory of a number of exhilarating knocks by a KP in his pomp c. 2005-2009.
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flibbertyjibber
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To be honest the silence from other members of the squad says a lot.
Really? Making a comment either way for any player is a brain-dead thing to do IMO.
If you say that of KP based on his performances this series, then you either have to say the same is true of everyone else in the side (as they all scored less than him) or say that they're all just bad.
Flower has bred a very negative style of play in English cricket, even when they were winning and I don't think Cook is strong enough to raise his voice (if he has one).
And no, I'm not a KP fanboy. I think he's a traitor - but you can't pin the blame on him here.
BoyBrumby
Englishman
From the outside looking in Cook seems to be the sort of chap who'd prefer to rule by consensus rather than dictat and, whatever else he is he's a singular character, it could be he isn't strong enough to "manage" Pietersen when he's having one of his divaish artistic fits.
Asks the question who would be; can't see it being Bell, by all accounts Broad isn't on KP's Xmas card list & Prior was dropped for lack of form.
Um, bugger.
Asks the question who would be; can't see it being Bell, by all accounts Broad isn't on KP's Xmas card list & Prior was dropped for lack of form.
Um, bugger.
ganeshran
International Debutant
Now with Trott and Swann gone, dropping KP in favour of another newbie could be disastrous for the squad.
Barring SA, I'd still back England to beat any other side at home, including Australia. So this whole business of "heads must roll for the debacle" doesn't make a lot of sense, because England need to rebuild their batting and spin attack, as well as find a more reliable third seamer.
Barring SA, I'd still back England to beat any other side at home, including Australia. So this whole business of "heads must roll for the debacle" doesn't make a lot of sense, because England need to rebuild their batting and spin attack, as well as find a more reliable third seamer.
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