The case of the missing black Test cricketer

[Unomaas]

I've read this about 5 times and I'm still not sure what your point is.

I'm not a New Zealander so forgive me if I step on toes.

The biggest sport in NZ is rugby. Way back in second place is cricket. For such a small island nation, they are considered to be the rulers of world rugby which is statistically quite an accomplishment (bar a couple of vociferous objections from some saffa's). The whole country is mad about rugby and the whole countries energy is focused on producing a team that can murder any competition. While this is great for Rugby in NZ, its bad news for the Black Caps because all the best athletes in the country choose rugby over cricket. The Black Caps invariably end up with the passionate cricket lovers and second tier athletes who just didn't cut it at Rugby. This has financial consequences also because the cricket New Zealand find it hard to fill a cricket stadium but New Zealand Rugby can sell out a All Black match twice over. If you could for one second imagine the whole All Black team bringing that Economic clout, athletic capital, excellence and intensity to the Black Caps game and cricket infrastructure, do you think the NZ team would be languishing on the bottom of the ICC rankings?

This is where you can draw parallel's with SAF. The greater population are more inclined to choose soccer as an athletic outlet and this is where the parallel ends with NZ because while the choosing between rugby and cricket is a conscious choice in NZ, its not a choice in SAF because for most, cricket is not viable due to reason's stated in other posts. If you take another extreme example; a country such as India has a billion souls who are mad about cricket and has all their athletic potential invested in producing the best cricketers in the world (which they do...constantly producing some of the best batters I have seen). And then you get SAF...where the game is restricted to a select group and seeks to remain that way. If you are a logical and rational person and had your Cricket South Africa hat on, how would you go about trying to justify only investing in athletic capital from certain segments of the national population especially given our tumultuous history as a country? Does it not make sense that the bigger the talent pool you have to choose from, the more cricket exellence and economic viability you can produce?

This argument coupled with adequate national representation of the Protea's are 2 of the biggest talking points behind transformation in CSA.

 

[Marius]

The South African government divides the population into four racial categories: African, Coloured, Indian (all three of which fall under the overall classification of black), and whites.

Not arguing with you about identity and so on, but the Coloured label is still with us, like it or not.

The current government is making the same mistake as the previous one by forcing us to fit into certain racial categories.

 

[Marius]

I'm not a New Zealander so forgive me if I step on toes.

The biggest sport in NZ is rugby. Way back in second place is cricket. For such a small island nation, they are considered to be the rulers of world rugby which is statistically quite an accomplishment (bar a couple of vociferous objections from some saffa's). The whole country is mad about rugby and the whole countries energy is focused on producing a team that can murder any competition. While this is great for Rugby in NZ, its bad news for the Black Caps because all the best athletes in the country choose rugby over cricket. The Black Caps invariably end up with the passionate cricket lovers and second tier athletes who just didn't cut it at Rugby. This has financial consequences also because the cricket New Zealand find it hard to fill a cricket stadium but New Zealand Rugby can sell out a All Black match twice over. If you could for one second imagine the whole All Black team bringing that Economic clout, athletic capital, excellence and intensity to the Black Caps game and cricket infrastructure, do you think the NZ team would be languishing on the bottom of the ICC rankings?

This is where you can draw parallel's with SAF. The greater population are more inclined to choose soccer as an athletic outlet and this is where the parallel ends with NZ because while the choosing between rugby and cricket is a conscious choice in NZ, its not a choice in SAF because for most, cricket is not viable due to reason's stated in other posts. If you take another extreme example; a country such as India has a billion souls who are mad about cricket and has all their athletic potential invested in producing the best cricketers in the world (which they do...constantly producing some of the best batters I have seen). And then you get SAF...where the game is restricted to a select group and seeks to remain that way. If you are a logical and rational person and had your Cricket South Africa hat on, how would you go about trying to justify only investing in athletic capital from certain segments of the national population especially given our tumultuous history as a country? Does it not make sense that the bigger the talent pool you have to choose from, the more cricket exellence and economic viability you can produce?

This argument coupled with adequate national representation of the Protea's are 2 of the biggest talking points behind transformation in CSA.

I agree with you completely, but you also missed the whole point of my argument.

Which African can we put into the Test team, today, that will not be completely out of their depth?

How do you think Themba Bavuma is going to do against Mitch Johnson, Siddle etc? He will be blown away.

Tsolekile is the only viable option, and now that AB is in good form with the gloves I doubt he will get a look in.

 

[hendrix]

I think neither of you are in disagreement with each of your main points in that the change mustn't happen in the national team but right from the ground up.

 

[Unomaas]

I completely agree there has to be change, and it's got to start by giving black kids the opportunity to play.

I think you completely missed the point of the article, which was that Moonda and Vice seem to imply that black Africans are being kept out of the team on purpose, which is clearly not the case.

And with regard to quotas, the only black cricketer playing now who would come close to holding his own at Test level is Thami Tsolekile. No other black cricketers are Test quality at the moment. Themba Bavuma may be in a few years, as might guys like Gqamane and Eddie Leie, but right now the pool of possible Test cricketers is tiny.

We can't put the cart before the horse

I would challenge you to post this article on a platform such as News24, South Africa's premier news source, provides breaking news on national, world, Africa, sport, entertainment, technology & more. and then after a day count all the likes you would get. Odds are, thousands! But are they an accurate representation of the South African population? What you fail to understand is that while your article resonates with a certain segment of the population, there's the other greater majority of the population and their one eyebrow is trying to climb out their individual skulls trying to understand why CSA is dragging its feet and not getting with the national program?

Merit should trump politics everytime but South Africa is a special case. If I could put it into perspective, on one extreme, we could go the Zimbabwe cricket route and forcefully implement national representation in the team, or we can pursue the other extreme, remove the SAF flag and representation from the Protea's team and rebrand them as "A Cricket Team in South Africa" thereby losing all rights to represent the country.

Both options are repugnant! Somehow we have to find a compromise in the middle that benefits everyone!

 

[Marius]

I would challenge you to post this article on a platform such as News24, South Africa's premier news source, provides breaking news on national, world, Africa, sport, entertainment, technology & more. and then after a day count all the likes you would get. Odds are, thousands! But are they an accurate representation of the South African population? What you fail to understand is that while your article resonates with a certain segment of the population, there's the other greater majority of the population and their one eyebrow is trying to climb out their individual skulls trying to understand why CSA is dragging its feet and not getting with the national program?

Merit should trump politics everytime but South Africa is a special case. If I could put it into perspective, on one extreme, we could go the Zimbabwe cricket route and forcefully implement national representation in the team, or we can pursue the other extreme, remove the SAF flag and representation from the Protea's team and rebrand them as "A Cricket Team in South Africa" thereby losing all rights to represent the country.

Both options are repugnant! Somehow we have to find a compromise in the middle that benefits everyone!

FFS, are you even reading any of my replies?

Of course there has to be transformation, and it has to start from the ground up. An African in the Test team would be awesome though, but who the **** would you put in now, and in place of who?

SAns in general don't care who represents them (see the support for the white Springboks and the black Bafana), but we do need to see an increase in African representation.

 

[Hurricane]

I think neither of you are in disagreement with each of your main points in that the change mustn't happen in the national team but right from the ground up.

that's not correct. One of them would like to see a compromise around quotas.

 

[hendrix]

that's not correct. One of them would like to see a compromise around quotas.

must've missed that, my bad.

I can get all sacrosanct about always selecting the best team etc etc Test Match Cricket blah blah blah. Honestly, I'm not sure if there's anything wrong with putting a little quota bias in now and again if it's good for a) SAC and B) SA in the long run.

That said, I'm not South African, and I'm also not a player likely to miss out because of this.

tbh though, the only players who I've actually heard complaining about a quota system were nowhere near the national team at the time, and that to me just sounded like whingeing.

 

[Marius]

that's not correct. One of them would like to see a compromise around quotas.

Quotas can work, to a degree.

When Ntini made his Test debut he was not deserving of a place, although he was on the fringes.

Right now, I don't think there is any African cricketer (apart from Tsolekile) who is even on the fringes of the Test XI. That is what I'm trying to point out.

We're also going into racial classification territory here, which we all thought went out with the last lot, in 1994.

The SA government classifies Africans, Indians, and Coloureds as 'black'. Therefore, in SA's last Test match, five of the XI were 'black' (Petersen, Amla, Duminy, Peterson, and Philander). Now they're not 'black' enough.

Now, how do we tell the difference between Africans and Coloureds? Are we going to use apartheid-era classifications, such as the infamous pencil test?

 

[SeamUp]

I beg to differ Unomaas.

Cricket is the main team summer sport in South Africa. You can play your football and rugby in the winter and in your teen years you hone your skills and see where it takes you. For example Herschelle Gibbs, Eddie Barlow, Peter Kirsten and the likes would have played representative rugby and even for the Springboks. AB de Villiers could have become a golfer or tennis player and earned more money but chose cricket. Thami Tsolekile and Jonty Rhodes could have chosen hockey. Dudley Nourse could have chosen football. These are just some examples of cricket winning due to it's popularity with those players.

When we became the best side in the world in the 60's we could have carried that on into the Apartheid years with a great rivalry with the West Indies. Since we have come back from isolation for the last 20 years we have not dropped out amongst the elite teams and will have the best test and ODI records behind the great Australian side. To me that is not punching above our weight. You can only do that for so long. We have passionate cricket fans in this country and loads of young players taking up through Bakers mini cricket of all races and creeds and that is why we produce such good cricketers.

 

[hendrix]

much, much prefer the inclusive definition of "black" tbh, but if 80% of the population don't identify with it then I dunno. Difficult question.

 

[hendrix]

When we became the best side in the world in the 60's we could have carried that on into the Apartheid years with a great rivalry with the West Indies. Since we have come back from isolation for the last 20 years we have not dropped out amongst the elite teams and will have the best test and ODI records behind the great Australian side. To me that is not punching above our weight. You can only do that for so long. We have passionate cricket fans in this country and loads of young players taking up through Bakers mini cricket of all races and creeds and that is why we produce such good cricketers.

Whether it's punching above your weight or not doesn't matter, you'd be better off with the black population playing more cricket, without a doubt.

 

[SeamUp]

Quotas can work, to a degree.

When Ntini made his Test debut he was not deserving of a place, although he was on the fringes.

Right now, I don't think there is any African cricketer (apart from Tsolekile) who is even on the fringes of the Test XI. That is what I'm trying to point out.

We're also going into racial classification territory here, which we all thought went out with the last lot, in 1994.

The SA government classifies Africans, Indians, and Coloureds as 'black'. Therefore, in SA's last Test match, five of the XI were 'black' (Petersen, Amla, Duminy, Peterson, and Philander). Now they're not 'black' enough.

Now, how do we tell the difference between Africans and Coloureds? Are we going to use apartheid-era classifications, such as the infamous pencil test?

That is why we as a nation won't move forward. It is all about classifications still. We need to move past it but if you go for a simple job interview to this day you still have classify which skin colour you are.

I mean to get into a university as a doctor you have to get 90% as a white or chinese, 80% as a coloured and Asian and 70% as a black.

There will always be differences because of it.

 

[SeamUp]

Whether it's punching above your weight or not doesn't matter, you'd be better off with the black population playing more cricket, without a doubt.

Why don't more white kids play football then and we see more white players play for Bafana ? Same with cricket, you can't force all black kids to play cricket.

So there is no guaranteeing if more blacks played cricket they would be better than the whites and if more whites played football they would be better than the blacks.

All you can do is let them enjoy the sport they play and see where it takes them.

 

[hendrix]

Why don't more white kids play football then and we see more white players play for Bafana ? Same with cricket, you can't force all black kids to play cricket.

So there is no guaranteeing if more blacks played cricket they would be better than the whites and if more whites played football they would be better than the blacks.

All you can do is let them enjoy the sport they play and see where it takes them.

yeah but when you see massive differences wouldn't you want to promote the sport towards a proprtion of the population that could provide a good playing pool?

One thing people don't realise is that here in NZ, more kids play soccer than rugby. By a long, long way. But the point is that they're exposed to rugby and thus have the option of playing, therefore all socioeconomic groups have a chance to contribute to the sport.

 

[Marius]

Why don't more white kids play football then and we see more white players play for Bafana ? Same with cricket, you can't force all black kids to play cricket.

So there is no guaranteeing if more blacks played cricket they would be better than the whites and if more whites played football they would be better than the blacks.

All you can do is let them enjoy the sport they play and see where it takes them.

And football is very popular amongst whites too, especially English-speaking whites and those from immigrant communities, such as the Portuguese and the Greeks. There are also a fair few whites playing in the PSL.

 

[SeamUp]

yeah but when you see massive differences wouldn't you want to promote the sport towards a proprtion of the population that could provide a good playing pool?

One thing people don't realise is that here in NZ, more kids play soccer than rugby. By a long, long way. But the point is that they're exposed to rugby and thus have the option of playing, therefore all socioeconomic groups have a chance to contribute to the sport.

No doubt about it. I've been crying out for the authorities to keep working at grass roots level because that is a way to get interest up but there are still no guarantees.

 

[Marius]

No doubt about it. I've been crying out for the authorities to keep working at grass roots level because that is a way to get interest up but there are still no guarantees.

This is a very limited example, but my mother teaches at a former Model C school. The school is probably 90% black.

The school used to have a cricket team. It doesn't anymore, but it has soccer and netball teams. Why? Because those are the sports the kids are interested in.

We have to grow the sport but if there's no interest, there is no interest.

It also doesn't help that the SABC is broadcasting fewer and fewer live cricket games.

 

[Unomaas]

I agree with you completely, but you also missed the whole point of my argument.

Which African can we put into the Test team, today, that will not be completely out of their depth?

How do you think Themba Bavuma is going to do against Mitch Johnson, Siddle etc? He will be blown away.

Tsolekile is the only viable option, and now that AB is in good form with the gloves I doubt he will get a look in.

I have read all your posts and while I will admit that I am being quite emotive and somewhat combative, it is you who fails to understand that we live in a constitutional democracy where the majority rules. That one undeniable fact must drive all other national dialogue, discourse and decisions. The premise of your article is wrong because in it you seek to establish cricket South Africa as the absolute center of the debate when in fact it should be the health and prosperity of the country as a whole.

I get you! If I also placed cricket front and center in my universe, then me and you would be singing in the same choir!

If you cannot understand this, then it is best that we discontinue this conversation.

 

[Marius]

I have read all your posts and while I will admit that I am being quite emotive and somewhat combative, it is you who fails to understand that we live in a constitutional democracy where the majority rules. That one undeniable fact must drive all other national dialogue, discourse and decisions. The premise of your article is wrong because in it you seek to establish cricket South Africa as the absolute center of the debate when in fact it should be the health and prosperity of the country as a whole.

I get you! If I also placed cricket front and center in my universe, then me and you would be singing in the same choir!

If you cannot understand this, then it is best that we discontinue this conversation.

How am I putting cricket at the centre of the nation's debate?

SA has massive socio-economic problems, and much has to be done to fix them. But I fail to see how putting someone who does not deserve to be in the Proteas Test XI will fix any of these problems.

I suppose it is the affirmative action question. Should a black guy be appointed over a white guy to any position? Yes, if the black guy is as qualified as the white guy (or even slightly less qualified, but if he has the right skills and qualifications to be a success). That's what it comes down to with the Test XI, no black guy is even close to being in the Test side on merit alone.