Third Name Listed for ATG XI

[simonlee48]

But once gain, not that I don't believe he should be included in an ATG side, but then why is he included in so few and even Wasim seems to be rated higher as a bowler and is selected to such teams by more persons.

I have wondered about this as well. Imran is not picked often as a bowler despite him being able to contribute with bat.Clearly, most experts don't rate Imran as the top 5-6 bowlers otherwise he should be making ATG XI more frequently due to his ability to contribute with bat.

Just a speculation - Reason may be him being a gun bowler only for 40% of his entire career. You are not going to find too many great bowlers who were contributing greatly with ball for only 40% of their entire career.

1971-1979( First 25 matches) -- Avg 31.88 & SR 69.6 [ Nothing great here ]
A great middle phase covering 35 matches.
1987- 1992 ( Last 28 matches) : Bowling Avg 27.52 [ He bowled lot less in this phase ]

If you flip the equation, will you take a batsman in your ATG XI who was contributing greatly with his bat only for 40% of his career? I will personally think very hard before picking that batsman. For a batsman , I would like to see a much longer period out of his entire career where he contributed greatly.

I personally think , this where Imran loses many brownie points.

 

[hendrix]

Nah, the thing about exceptionally long careers like Imran's is that they were invariably picked too early, and retired too late. Even those first and last thirds of his career are still pretty good, and when you put his overall career numbers out there I think he's very underrated as a bowler. Given that at his peak he was probably even better than Malcolm Marshall, I see no reason why he shouldn't be rated as in the top 5-6 bowlers of all time.

I also think that given he'd be picked as a third seamer (behind Malcolm and whoever else you want opening the bowling), there's not enough of a difference between him and any of the other bowlers (Ambrose, McGrath, Hadlee etc) to justify not taking his batting into account.

 

[simonlee48]

Nah, the thing about exceptionally long careers like Imran's is that they were invariably picked too early, and retired too late. Even those first and last thirds of his career are still pretty good, and when you put his overall career numbers out there I think he's very underrated as a bowler. Given that at his peak he was probably even better than Malcolm Marshall, I see no reason why he shouldn't be rated as in the top 5-6 bowlers of all time.

I also think that given he'd be picked as a third seamer (behind Malcolm and whoever else you want opening the bowling), there's not enough of a difference between him and any of the other bowlers (Ambrose, McGrath, Hadlee etc) to justify not taking his batting into account.

I was just speculating here for reasons for not seeing Imran often in World XI. As a bowler, if he gets rated around the same level as many other contenders then he should make it most of the times due to his batting. But that's not the case.

 

[hendrix]

agreed.

 

[The Battlers Prince]

What is the CW view on Imran picking at the seam? Is it a possible reason for not making some of those sides?

 

[simonlee48]

What is the CW view on Imran picking at the seam? Is it a possible reason for not making some of those sides?

Possibly. I didn't really see a whole lot of cricket in 80s but I would think that tampering was not limited to one or two bowlers. An argument can be made for reverse swing bowlers making more use of it though.

One reason or another, Imran seems to not appear that frequently in those sides. I still think that him being a top bowler for only 40% of his career influences many experts when picking ATG sides. Clearly, it's due to debuting early and playing till late but it does leave an impression. It was a long career but he had only 35 matches at a stretch with great performance. Most ATG bowlers have many more matches at a stretch where they had great bowling contributions. Imran was better than almost everyone else in those 35 matches but rest of the 60% of his career he wasn't great. It wasn't bad but we are comparing it with other great bowlers.

 

[The Battlers Prince]

I agree, more than just Imran would have tampered with the ball. But maybe the likes of Wisden and cricinfo think Imran could be a scapegoat for other 'cheats', if they see it that way.

 

[hendrix]

I agree, more than just Imran would have tampered with the ball. But maybe the likes of Wisden and cricinfo think Imran could be a scapegoat for other 'cheats', if they see it that way.

I think there a couple of reasons why they leave him out. Firstly, because the way they do their selections is to select an allrounder - and they consider him part of the group of allrounders, despite his actual figures matching up with anyone's. And then there's the team composition values of picking a left hander like Wasim which also counts against him.

 

[simonlee48]

In this poll, I voted for Gilchrist, Sachin and Warne.

If I have to chose just one then I will go with Gilchrist.

 

[smash84]

Possibly. I didn't really see a whole lot of cricket in 80s but I would think that tampering was not limited to one or two bowlers. An argument can be made for reverse swing bowlers making more use of it though.

One reason or another, Imran seems to not appear that frequently in those sides. I still think that him being a top bowler for only 40% of his career influences many experts when picking ATG sides. Clearly, it's due to debuting early and playing till late but it does leave an impression. It was a long career but he had only 35 matches at a stretch with great performance. Most ATG bowlers have many more matches at a stretch where they had great bowling contributions. Imran was better than almost everyone else in those 35 matches but rest of the 60% of his career he wasn't great. It wasn't bad but we are comparing it with other great bowlers.

Are you learning stats from kyear2?


I get the feeling you never really watched Imran play and you didn't follow his career either. Imran was coming onto his own from 1977-78 and in the 10 year period from 1979-1988 he was among the best fast bowlers in the world (2 years he was injured)

Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

From 1978 to 1988 Imran played around 58 matches which is about 2/3rds of his career i.e. 66% AND he took 272 wickets during that time at an average of 19.39 and a SR 47.8.

 

[kyear2]

What is the CW view on Imran picking at the seam? Is it a possible reason for not making some of those sides?

Wasn't going to reply because anytime I say something against Imran, Smali attacks Sobers and Marshall. But since I said nothing and was attacked anyway, might as well.

I believe it is a factor, I would have grown up hearing and occasionally reading about it but It really struck me when I heard with my own ears Rameez Raja recount how Imran taught him how to ball tamper without being caught. So not only did he do it but promoted and taught it as well.
There are other factors as well, primarily his away record,that is good, though not quite on par with the very best fast bowlers and even his stellar record at home is seen by some to have been aided by the "patriotic" (his words not mine) umpires at home. As such probably isn't seen as among the top 5 or 6 fast bowlers in contention for spots.

Of course the above is just theory and partially my perspective.

 

[simonlee48]

Are you learning stats from kyear2?


I get the feeling you never really watched Imran play and you didn't follow his career either. Imran was coming onto his own from 1977-78 and in the 10 year period from 1979-1988 he was among the best fast bowlers in the world (2 years he was injured)

Let's focus on message and not messengers. What did you find factually wrong here to accuse me of learning stats from other posters?

---------------------------------------------------------

1971-1979( First 25 matches) -- Avg 31.88 { Nothing great here }
A great middle phase covering 35 matches. Probably unmatched in history.
1987- 1992 ( Last 28 matches) : Bowling Avg 27.52 { He bowled a lot less in this phase }

----------------------------------------------------

It's simply a break up of Imran's career in three phases. If you find anything wrong here, please point it out. I already said that I didn't watch too much of cricket in 80s so you don't have to guess anything. I watched only the last 4-5 years of that great fella.

You are now bundling his 58 matches. You can as well take his entire career and then his average of entire career but that's not the point I was making. Show me few more examples of great bowlers who were averaging 27-31 for 60% of their career at a stretch. Imran is great due to those 35 matches and having out of the world stats in those 35 matches. If you combine it with 20 previous or 20 later matches, his figures will still look very good but I wasn't debating that point. Did bowlers like Marshall, McGrath or Ambrose had a some what similar break up where they contributed at very high level( sub 25 average) for only 30-35 matches?

I guess we all know the answer to that question. I wasn't questioning Imran's greatness. I was only pointing out him not being so great in rest of the matches as a possible explanation of him not making into ATG XI very frequently. I have a feeling that if he was averaging 20 in those 35 matches and also 22-23 in another 30 matches, he would have certainly rated bit higher as a bowler and that would have pushed him as a lock in ATG XI due to his batting.

If I have got it wrong then please correct me rather than getting personal. Imran being an ATG bowler or being one of the best in his era is not being debated here. We are debating a different point.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Nothing too ridiculous with what you said, tbh. For me, Imran's peak of 6-7 years was long enough to place him among the greatest of bowlers, but you're right in saying that other howlers like Mcgrath, Hadlee, Marshall, etc. maintained an exceptionally high standard for a longer period of time. If you hold it against Imran, fair enough, your call.

 

[simonlee48]

Nothing too ridiculous with what you said, tbh. For me, Imran's peak of 6-7 years was long enough to place him among the greatest of bowlers, but you're right in saying that other howlers like Mcgrath, Hadlee, Marshall, etc. maintained an exceptionally high standard for a longer period of time. If you hold it against Imran, fair enough, your call.

I personally don't hold it against him. I was just offering a possible explanation for him not being in those list more frequently.

 

[smash84]

Let's focus on message and not messengers. What did you find factually wrong here to accuse me of learning stats from other posters?

---------------------------------------------------------

1971-1979( First 25 matches) -- Avg 31.88 { Nothing great here }
A great middle phase covering 35 matches. Probably unmatched in history.
1987- 1992 ( Last 28 matches) : Bowling Avg 27.52 { He bowled a lot less in this phase }

----------------------------------------------------

It's simply a break up of Imran's career in three phases. If you find anything wrong here, please point it out. I already said that I didn't watch too much of cricket in 80s so you don't have to guess anything. I watched only the last 4-5 years of that great fella.

You are now bundling his 58 matches. You can as well take his entire career and then his average of entire career but that's not the point I was making. Show me few more examples of great bowlers who were averaging 27-31 for 60% of their career at a stretch. Imran is great due to those 35 matches and having out of the world stats in those 35 matches. If you combine it with 20 previous or 20 later matches, his figures will still look very good but I wasn't debating that point. Did bowlers like Marshall, McGrath or Ambrose had a some what similar break up where they contributed at very high level( sub 25 average) for only 30-35 matches?

I guess we all know the answer to that question. I wasn't questioning Imran's greatness. I was only pointing out him not being so great in rest of the matches as a possible explanation of him not making into ATG XI very frequently. I have a feeling that if he was averaging 20 in those 35 matches and also 22-23 in another 30 matches, he would have certainly rated bit higher as a bowler and that would have pushed him as a lock in ATG XI due to his batting.

If I have got it wrong then please correct me rather than getting personal. Imran being an ATG bowler or being one of the best in his era is not being debated here. We are debating a different point.

My apologies for accusing you of posting stats like kyear2. I knew you would take it as an insult

Anyhow my point still stands (you can refute it btw) that you probably didn't follow Imran's career closely when he was playing. Imran was a vastly improved bowler in 1976 than the one who had debuted in 1971. The 12 wickets at Sydney were a kind of turning point in his career. On the county circuit he was learning from John Snow and by 1978 he was playing alongside some of the greatest names ever and holding his own and until the 1988 series against the WI he was arguably the finest fast bowler in the world. So your idea of his first 25 match performance isn't really that good.

 

[subshakerz]

Let's focus on message and not messengers. What did you find factually wrong here to accuse me of learning stats from other posters?

---------------------------------------------------------

1971-1979( First 25 matches) -- Avg 31.88 { Nothing great here }
A great middle phase covering 35 matches. Probably unmatched in history.
1987- 1992 ( Last 28 matches) : Bowling Avg 27.52 { He bowled a lot less in this phase }

----------------------------------------------------

It's simply a break up of Imran's career in three phases. If you find anything wrong here, please point it out. I already said that I didn't watch too much of cricket in 80s so you don't have to guess anything. I watched only the last 4-5 years of that great fella.

You are now bundling his 58 matches. You can as well take his entire career and then his average of entire career but that's not the point I was making. Show me few more examples of great bowlers who were averaging 27-31 for 60% of their career at a stretch. Imran is great due to those 35 matches and having out of the world stats in those 35 matches. If you combine it with 20 previous or 20 later matches, his figures will still look very good but I wasn't debating that point. Did bowlers like Marshall, McGrath or Ambrose had a some what similar break up where they contributed at very high level( sub 25 average) for only 30-35 matches?

I guess we all know the answer to that question. I wasn't questioning Imran's greatness. I was only pointing out him not being so great in rest of the matches as a possible explanation of him not making into ATG XI very frequently. I have a feeling that if he was averaging 20 in those 35 matches and also 22-23 in another 30 matches, he would have certainly rated bit higher as a bowler and that would have pushed him as a lock in ATG XI due to his batting.

If I have got it wrong then please correct me rather than getting personal. Imran being an ATG bowler or being one of the best in his era is not being debated here. We are debating a different point.

Um, you are off on your numbers. Imran's peak period as a bowler, statistically and otherwise, was right after the World Series Cup which ended in April 1979, by which he had acquired all the bowling tools and remodeled his action, to the epic series in West Indies in 1988, in which he gave his final great performance as a bowler, after which he played more as a batsman rather than a bowler. That period lasts for 51 tests, not 35 as you state, which nearly 60% of his career, and he averaged a healthy 37 with the bat as well.

All-round records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

Back to the topic, the reasons for Imran not figuring in all these lists is simple: most of the pundits restrict themselves to 1 all-rounder only, thus limiting themselves only to Sobers. And Imran's fame as a captain and all-rounder have in the past taken away much of the emphasis on his bowling abilities to him being considered as a bowler alone.

 

[simonlee48]

Um, you are off on your numbers. Imran's peak period as a bowler, statistically and otherwise, was right after the World Series Cup which ended in April 1979, by which he had acquired all the bowling tools and remodeled his action, to the epic series in West Indies in 1988, in which he gave his final great performance as a bowler, after which he played more as a batsman rather than a bowler. That period lasts for 51 tests, not 35 as you state, which nearly 60% of his career, and he averaged a healthy 37 with the bat as well.

Back to the topic, the reasons for Imran not figuring in all these lists is simple: most of the pundits restrict themselves to 1 all-rounder only, thus limiting themselves only to Sobers. And Imran's fame as a captain and all-rounder have in the past taken away much of the emphasis on his bowling abilities to him being considered as a bowler alone.

I simply took every year of Imran actual performance to break up his career. See how he performed each year.

Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo


1980 was the first year he averaged below 25 then he had a great run till 1986. In 1987 he played 10 tests with near 30 average. So his great run was over by 1986. That's what his performance shows. He played 10 tests in 1987. That's a very large sample size and he averaged near 30. I will treat 1988 with 3 tests as an aberration due to very small sample size specially when he didn't do great in previous 10 tests. You can't really count these 13 tests in his great run as a bowler. Clearly, 80-86 was a great run for him and he played 35 tests in that period. Sure, it will change by few tests due to finding exact months when he was great but it's not going to change much. 40% may become 45% if you find exact months.

About his batting average - Again, I was not debating the greatness of Imran as a player. I was only trying to speculate reasons for him being left out so often from those lists despite having that batting average. I am not sure why anyone will leave out a comparable gun bowler specially if he can contribute with bat as well. That seems very weird logic for any expert. You want to pick your strongest team. Trying to make teams stronger is the main reason Wasim makes it so often. Often a comparable bowler is left out and Wasim makes it because Wasim makes the team stronger due to additional factors. If Imran is seen as comparable to other top contenders in bowling then he should be the first choice due to his batting.Team will look stronger and that's the goal of picking those ATG XI. Many not seeing him as top 4-6 bowlers seems more rational explanation to me and that's why I was trying to see why he is not considered in top 4-6 by so many people.

 

[simonlee48]

My apologies for accusing you of posting stats like kyear2. I knew you would take it as an insult

Anyhow my point still stands (you can refute it btw) that you probably didn't follow Imran's career closely when he was playing. Imran was a vastly improved bowler in 1976 than the one who had debuted in 1971. The 12 wickets at Sydney were a kind of turning point in his career. On the county circuit he was learning from John Snow and by 1978 he was playing alongside some of the greatest names ever and holding his own and until the 1988 series against the WI he was arguably the finest fast bowler in the world. So your idea of his first 25 match performance isn't really that good.

I am new to this forum and I don't know have mental image of any poster in my mind. I don't know what to make of kyear2 and his stats.

Coming back to topic. I clearly said that I didn't watch the entire career of Imran so not sure why you need to still guess. I know about Imran's transformation as a bowler. I wasn't saying that Imran was the same bowler when he started. My point was actual performance by Imran. He may have improved greatly by 1976 but his performance as a bowler was great starting from 1980. He was averaging near 30 in each year till then. We can always add few years in early part and few years in later part but fact remains that he was averaging drastically higher outside of 1980-1986. Sure, as a fellow poster claimed that his great run started in the middle of 1979 rather than the start of 1980 but it's only few moths here and there.

A bowler's job is to pick wickets cheaply and he wasn't picking wickets cheaply outside of this 6-7 years when he played 35 tests matches. I took a break up of his entire career on year by year basis and that's how his performance lined up in real numbers. He may have been a great bowler outside of that window but his output doesn't reflect that. He was great in middle 35 tests matches. In fact, out of the world in those 35 matches but outside of that window he was mostly averaging near 30. I suspect most experts will look for a greater run that 35-40 test matches if they have an option of McGrath, Marshall or Ambrose. Just thinking aloud here.

I am fully aware of his early start, not being the same bowler, getting older and not being able to bowl much later and so on. But when all said and done, you are going to pick only 3-4 bowlers. I think, a lot of folks will pick bowlers who kept high standards for a higher number of games. I am personally fine with it because 6-8 years is a long enough period for a fast bowler.

 

[subshakerz]

I simply took every year of Imran actual performance to break up his career. See how he performed each year.

Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo


1980 was the first year he averaged below 25 then he had a great run till 1986. In 1987 he played 10 tests with near 30 average. So his great run was over by 1986. That's what his performance shows. He played 10 tests in 1987. That's a very large sample size and he averaged near 30. I will treat 1988 with 3 tests as an aberration due to very small sample size specially when he didn't do great in previous 10 tests. You can't really count these 13 tests in his great run as a bowler. Clearly, 80-86 was a great run for him and he played 35 tests in that period. Sure, it will change by few tests due to finding exact months when he was great but it's not going to change much. 40% may become 45% if you find exact months.

No, Imran was still a great bowler in 1987-88 and was recognized by all and sundry as such. You arbitrarily remove those tests in 1987 simply because his figures took a hit in the 1987 series in India on dead wickets and then somehow treat 1988 as an aberration. FYI, he was man of the series for all the series he played during 1987-88 (against England, India and WI), and only did poorly against India with the ball while he was terrific against England and WI. He couldnt produce match-winning performances like those below if he was past his best:

HowSTAT! Match Scorecard
HowSTAT! Match Scorecard

This pure stats approach to looking at someone's career without any context or knowledge of the person's career will leave you with some pretty off base conclusions. The fact is, from 1979 - 1988 was Imran's peak as a bowler and that sample size is large enough to represent a good majority of his career.

 

[simonlee48]

No, Imran was still a great bowler in 1987-88 and was recognized by all and sundry as such. You arbitrarily remove those tests in 1987 simply because his figures took a hit in the 1987 series in India on dead wickets and then somehow treat 1988 as an aberration.

his pure stats approach to looking at someone's career without any context or knowledge of the person's career will leave you with some pretty off base conclusions. The fact is, from 1979 - 1988 was Imran's peak as a bowler and that sample size is large enough to represent a good majority of his career.

Quite true but it gets rectified when you dissect it bit more. Thanks for pointing it out. So if you include 2 more years he will get 10-15 more matches. Still not at the same level as some other top bowlers who maintained high standard for lot more games.

Going by records of all fast bowlers who visited Pakistan, it seem Pakistan had super flat wickets most of the time but still Imran ran riots on the same Pakistani wickets. He has probably the best records at home and those were flat wickets. I am not sure why it should change drastically for him for Indian flat wickets.