***Official*** India in New Zealand 2013/14

[Blocky]

There were metropolitan teams involved years ago but these teams ended up basically being the 2nd XI of whichever city they were in. The Dunedin Metro Hawke Cup side was the Volts B team at one point I believe and there was no way the districts teams could compete with that. Which is why it's surprising that Hamilton still has a team in the Hawke Cup comp, given their proximity to the base of a FC side.

Yeah, but then Hamilton has one of the strongest premier scenes in New Zealand and two of the best cricketing schools in the country.

 

[Hurricane]

The Hawke Cup is what I'd like to expand; at the moment it seems more like a way for players from outside the main cities to be recognised than anything. I'd love to see it run more consistently across the season with teams from the city centres included (although probably less teams overall) and more consistently over three day matches. Obviously there are major logistical and financial roadblocks to this however; we probably don't live in a world where this is possible.

I've given this some thought.

Wellington would have to be broken up into regions as would Auckland and Christchurch. This would lead to more teams and not less however unless you want to chop some of the rural ones which would be a shame as the heartlands is where cricket is at its strongest on a per capita participation basis.

My local area would be Hutt valley. Reckon we could field a pretty strong team. I asked the guys in my club what the next level up for them is and they just said the Firebirds so it would be good to have something in between.

 

[BackFootPunch]

Yeah, but then Hamilton has one of the strongest premier scenes in New Zealand and two of the best cricketing schools in the country.

Agreed, but most of the guys playing for the Hamilton side are ND A players, or on the fringes of that set up anyway, so there's a pretty vast gulf between a team like that and some of the teams from the South Island/other parts of the North Island. Hamilton city itself could probably have its own first class side.

 

[Flem274*]

Yeah. Shouldn't be any reverse for Zak and Shami though, so either Jadeja or Ashwin are going to have to do well if they don't get early wickets.

Still can't believe they're leaving Ojha out.

If it's gonna reverse in NZ then late season is the best chance. We've seen it reverse in unzud before so they're a chance. I can understand not bringing three spin bowling options on a tour to NZ, but it may backfire if our summer is really really dry because then you can see turn domestically which may translate to the test pitches.

 

[hendrix]

If it's gonna reverse in NZ then late season is the best chance. We've seen it reverse in unzud before so they're a chance. I can understand not bringing three spin bowling options on a tour to NZ, but it may backfire if our summer is really really dry because then you can see turn domestically which may translate to the test pitches.

I seem to remember that Ishant did actually have some early success last tour. I hope for their sake that that doesn't mean they pick him. He'll probably still get Rutherford though...

 

[Flem274*]

I seem to remember that Ishant did actually have some early success last tour. I hope for their sake that that doesn't mean they pick him. He'll probably still get Rutherford though...

Our top three was a real mess back then. Guptill in ODI 30 (40) mode, McIntosh or whoever it was not scoring runs and Flynn was falling further apart visibly with every innings. Was right before he was dropped iirc.

With Fulton and KW we're better (especially at home) but not exactly the real deal now..

 

[Prince EWS]

I've given this some thought.

Wellington would have to be broken up into regions as would Auckland and Christchurch. This would lead to more teams and not less however unless you want to chop some of the rural ones which would be a shame as the heartlands is where cricket is at its strongest on a per capita participation basis.

My local area would be Hutt valley. Reckon we could field a pretty strong team. I asked the guys in my club what the next level up for them is and they just said the Firebirds so it would be good to have something in between.

I basically just think the entire country should be represented in some way at Hawke Cup level, with the First Class sides picking from it as the season goes on.

I wouldn't really want to "cut" any teams per se, but I'd want less of them and I'd want some new ones, so if that meant merging some of the districts, then so be it. I don't know enough about regional NZ geography to offer specific suggestions but the merged districts could have pre-season trials between the pre-merger sides to form squads for it.

If this interrupted some working functionality of the Hawke Cup as it too much then I'd just leave the Hawke Cup as it is and stick another competition above it. Again though, we don't live in a perfect world; there would be logistical, financial and indeed political roadblocks to all that.

What South Africa did was merge their dozen or so First Class districts into six and then leave the original competition below (erroneously still having First Class status ). All the franchises have a couple of different sides competing in the lower comp to pick players from. Imagine the Kippax conspiracy theories possible with that setup though, gosh.

 

[Flem274*]

If you really wanted to step on egg shells you could leave the Hawke Cup mostly as is but get sides from the cities into their own comp so you have two competitions side by side. The Shunts Trophy or something.

 

[Blocky]

Agreed, but most of the guys playing for the Hamilton side are ND A players, or on the fringes of that set up anyway, so there's a pretty vast gulf between a team like that and some of the teams from the South Island/other parts of the North Island. Hamilton city itself could probably have its own first class side.

I can tell you though, it's perceived that you have to be several leagues ahead of the guys from BOP, Gisborne, Counties and Northland to get in the side. There are a lot of guys who have either quit cricket entirely or gone to other provinces and ended up in the first class scene there that come from Hamilton.

I think a better idea is to readdress the boundaries in first class cricket and maybe create a couple more provinces that only play four day cricket, turn the one day and T20 competitions into franchise style sides. I don't think the quality would be that impacted so long as the boundaries were intelligent as there are a lot of guys now on the fringe of first class cricket who would probably do as good of a job. We need to invest more in four day cricket, it's my view that it's much easier to transform someone who can build innings over time into capable limited overs players than it is to do in reverse.

I think Northland, Hamilton and Hawkes Bay all produce enough cricketers to be able to produce a competitive four day team each ontop of the guys they already have playing domestically.

 

[Flem274*]

Manawatu/Wanganui/Taranaki could almost make a decent "Western Provinces" side, allowing Hawkes Bay to depart from CD with Cachopa, KNB, Hay etc. From the top of my head...

Jamie How
Dean Robinson
Ben Smith
Ross Taylor
Will Young
James MacDougall or some other youngster
Dane Cleaver
Some Spinner
Roald Badenhorst
Adam Milne
Bevan Small

 

[Prince EWS]

If you really wanted to step on egg shells you could leave the Hawke Cup mostly as is but get sides from the cities into their own comp so you have two competitions side by side. The Shunts Trophy or something.

Essentially my point was that I really like the idea of having an elite competition of six teams spanning the entire country at the top level (check). then having an intermediary competition below that of 12 sides playing consistent three day cricket across the season - essentially splitting each FC district into two, giving each FC side two teams halfway between Second XI and Third XI to choose from - and then club cricket below that. The idea would be that no-one would actually get called up to FC cricket from club cricket; they'd play in the 12-team competition first and earn their FC selection there. It'd be costly, hard to organise and quite possibly piss a lot of people off (presidents of big club cricket sides spring to mind..) but I think it's the best way to develop First Class cricketers.

If the Hawke Cup can't or shouldn't be converted into that then it'd have to be a different competition altogether.

 

[Hurricane]

I can tell you though, it's perceived that you have to be several leagues ahead of the guys from BOP, Gisborne, Counties and Northland to get in the side. There are a lot of guys who have either quit cricket entirely or gone to other provinces and ended up in the first class scene there that come from Hamilton.

I think a better idea is to readdress the boundaries in first class cricket and maybe create a couple more provinces that only play four day cricket, turn the one day and T20 competitions into franchise style sides. I don't think the quality would be that impacted so long as the boundaries were intelligent as there are a lot of guys now on the fringe of first class cricket who would probably do as good of a job. We need to invest more in four day cricket, it's my view that it's much easier to transform someone who can build innings over time into capable limited overs players than it is to do in reverse.

I think Northland, Hamilton and Hawkes Bay all produce enough cricketers to be able to produce a competitive four day team each ontop of the guys they already have playing domestically.

I've wanted their to be 8 teams for a while playing FC. The only reason I don't push it more is the reasons you have been giving ie that our FC standard is not good enough already so expanding the number of teams would exacerbate the problem. I also expect the finances of player salaries would be a problem.

 

[Bahnz]

I've wanted their to be 8 teams for a while playing FC. The only reason I don't push it more is the reasons you have been giving ie that our FC standard is not good enough already so expanding the number of teams would exacerbate the problem. I also expect the finances of player salaries would be a problem.

Well, there is an argument to be made that increasing the number of First Class sides wouldn't necessarily dilute the standard, and would instead allow more young and talented amateur cricketers the opportunity to grow and improve in a professional environment. But yes, the financial side of things is the larger problem.

 

[Prince EWS]

Well, there is an argument to be made that increasing the number of First Class sides wouldn't necessarily dilute the standard, and would instead allow more young and talented amateur cricketers the opportunity to grow and improve in a professional environment. But yes, the financial side of things is the larger problem.

I think six is a good number for the top flight when you consider that there's often another team or so of the best players in the country unavailable with the national side. If you are only going to have six though you have to organise proper pathways for the cricketers between club cricket and First Class cricket, especially in ensuring they're playing multi-day cricket.

 

[Flem274*]

I guess one issue with 6 sides is it risks blocking the rise of good players because there is someone who is "good enough" ahead of them. Wellington have had that issue over the past few years. Some teams like CD try to combat it by just contracting whoever the hell they like (bowlers, bowlers everywhere) and screw balance, but it doesn't actually help those players make the eleven and pisses off others.

 

[Hurricane]

I guess PEWS regarding one of your earlier posts is travel is the the issue. I found this article about South Canterbury's hawke cup season schedule Hawke Cup preparation feature | Stuff.co.nz

It is all very local stuff. Your 12 team proposal requires a lot of travel and BFP already indicated they just have a post New Year's competition for the provincial A teams at the moment to avoid travelling.

We would need to take your expanded Hawke cup program and create 4 regions throughout the country for people to play within. And then just have a play off at the end of the year. That would require more than 12 teams.

If you are sold on 12 teams at the "A" level then you will need to think of a funding structure for them to allow them time off work and to travel.

 

[Prince EWS]

I guess PEWS regarding one of your earlier posts is travel is the the issue. I found this article about South Canterbury's hawke cup season schedule Hawke Cup preparation feature | Stuff.co.nz

It is all very local stuff. Your 12 team proposal requires a lot of travel and BFP already indicated they just have a post New Year's competition for the provincial A teams at the moment to avoid travelling.

We would need to take your expanded Hawke cup program and create 4 regions throughout the country for people to play within. And then just have a play off at the end of the year. That would require more than 12 teams.

If you are sold on 12 teams at the "A" level then you will need to think of a funding structure for them to allow them time off work and to travel.

Oh yeah it would be a logistical and financial nightmare as I've said a few times. I don't really expect it to happen, especially given New Zealand is a big country with a pretty cash-strapped cricket board; I just think it'd work really well from a cricketing perspective.

 

[ohnoitsyou]

Go have a look at Wagner taking five wickets in six balls on YouTube, in a very short sample you'll see him take it right to left, then left to right. Now go have a look at the recent series where he setup Chanderpaul with a series of inswingers before getting him with the outswinger. Boult does not possess that ability.

You would think that someone who has played at the levels you have would know the difference between conventional and reverse swing and what that difference entails. Also absolutely anyone can swing the ball both ways if they can present the seam properly (which Wagner was unable to do upon entering the side). Their action might limit the movement they are able toextract but the ball will still move through the air

 

[sledger]

You would think that someone who has played at the levels you have would know the difference between conventional and reverse swing and what that difference entails. Also absolutely anyone can swing the ball both ways if they can present the seam properly (which Wagner was unable to do upon entering the side). Their action might limit the movement they are able toextract but the ball will still move through the air

Yeah, you would think that, which leads me to suspect that Blocky is lying about his cricketing experience.

 

[London Kiwi]

This may have already been covered - but it seems a shame only 2 tests. I understand the reasons - the fans certainly don't pack the grounds for test matches in NZ. But personally I'd much rather they cut the ODI series to 3 and play another test.

I'd love to see the Blackcaps genuinely competitive in test cricket - and that will only happen if they play some proper series.