*Official* Fifth Test at the SCG

[Spark]

Nah, Australia's attack is much better.

It's the South Africa vs England argument from 2011 all over again. Australia win now for the same reason England won in 2011. South Africa might have the best 2 bowlers in the world but Australia's entire attack (and I include Watson in this) is absolutely unrelenting in the pressure they exert on the opposition.

Michael Clarke (or whoever it is that's devising the fielding plans) also count as an invaluable part of the attack, his field placings both help buy wickets for the bowlers (see Johnson's 1st innings dismissal of Carberry) and help the unit slowly strangle the opposition batting lineup (see pretty much the entire English summer).

The presence of Lyon, Watson and Clarke the captain in Australia's attack, as well as Siddle being better than Morkel more than makes up for Steyn and Philander.

Uh, just for clarity, who are you talking about winning against? India? Because England haven't beaten South Africa recently...

 

[Ruckus]

As Burgey said, so much depends on whether Johnson continues in the same vein as this series. If Johnson reverts back to a lower level then the SA attack is better than ours imo (Siddle was pretty innocuous last time he bowled in SA too). And despite his remarkable consistency this series it is a little hard to imagine how Johnson will maintain the same standards, because they have been unbelievably good - when he bowls like this he is better than Steyn, Philander, Harris or anyone. He has the highest ceiling of the lot. The problem is though with England's utterly woeful batting, he hasn't really been tested yet. If the SA batsmen can take him on better, then it will be a test for him to see if he can stay composed without leaking runs.

 

[Jono]

Uh, just for clarity, who are you talking about winning against? India? Because England haven't beaten South Africa recently...

He means "winning" as in England "won" the battle between SA for best bowling attack. He doesn't mean it in a literal sense of winning.

 

[Spark]

Siddle the last time he toured was still rubbish, though. He only really came good consistently (ie. started to pitch the damn thing up) against India later that summer.

MJ will still be used as a shock bowler, and he'll still take wickets. Whether he'll be as outrageously dominant and rampant as he was here - well, that's another story.

He means "winning" as in England "won" the battle between SA for best bowling attack. He doesn't mean it in a literal sense of winning.

Right, I see. That's a pretty firm statement to be making after the fact, though, given SA won the very next year.

 

[hendrix]

when he bowls like this he is better than Steyn, Philander, Harris or anyone. He has the highest ceiling of the lot. .

I think this has been addressed in another thread, but I'd just like to say that there are those of use who completely disagree with this. Steyn's high points are shockingly good. Better than Johnson's.

What I will say is that I think Harris is the most consistent of the lot and the one who I'd back most to take wickets anywhere against any opposition in any sort of form at all. Steyn does have the odd off day. I've never seen Harris bowl poorly.

 

[Ruckus]

Well have to agree to disagree, I think Johnson's highs, because of the varied attributes of his bowling when he is on song (incredibly quick, left-arm, very late swing, nigh unplayable short balls etc.) make him about as difficult a bowler to face as anyone in cricket.

Have seen Harris bowl poorly in a few innings, but yeah your right he is a very consistent bowler and far more often than not takes wickets.

 

[Tangles]

I think this has been addressed in another thread, but I'd just like to say that there are those of use who completely disagree with this. Steyn's high points are shockingly good. Better than Johnson's.

What I will say is that I think Harris is the most consistent of the lot and the one who I'd back most to take wickets anywhere against any opposition in any sort of form at all. Steyn does have the odd off day. I've never seen Harris bowl poorly.

Harris is gun. Needs to be cryogenicly preserved between test series.

 

[benchmark00]

omg did coco get banned for that picture? Having a laugh aren't you. Jesus.

 

[sphynx]

I think Johnsons best is better than Steyns best.

And I love Steyn to bits, and that in no way degrades him, because Johnson has been utter **** for most of his career.

Most people agree Dale is a modern champion, and leave it at that, I don't think anyone compares him with the likes of McGrath or Ambrose and the like, he's a fantastic bowler, but the rung below.

Johnson on the rampage is as good as any Australian bowler in history, I can't put it any simpler than that. He's one of quickest bowlers in the world, tall, gets bounce, is a left armer and seams it.

As I said Steyn >>>> Johnson, but at their best, there isn't a better bowler in this batch of world cricketers than Johnson imo, he's ATG comparable at his scary best, which to date has been 2 series in an almost 10 year career.

 

[Arachnodouche]

I think Johnsons best is better than Steyns best.

And I love Steyn to bits, and that in no way degrades him, because Johnson has been utter **** for most of his career.

Most people agree Dale is a modern champion, and leave it at that, I don't think anyone compares him with the likes of McGrath or Ambrose and the like, he's a fantastic bowler, but the rung below.

Johnson on the rampage is as good as any Australian bowler in history, I can't put it any simpler than that. He's one of quickest bowlers in the world, tall, gets bounce, is a left armer and seams it.

As I said Steyn >>>> Johnson, but at their best, there isn't a better bowler in this batch of world cricketers than Johnson imo, he's ATG comparable at his scary best, which to date has been 2 series in an almost 10 year career.

Yeah fully agree with this. I'm just wondering if the new Johnson is here to stay...he has another two years of great material in him at least considering his ftiness and speeds at 32. He seems to have found a happy mental space finally, his average is down to 28...long may it continue. who's to know how history will come to judge him?

Also people seem to be underestimating the void Kallis' departure is going to leave in this SA setup. Australia are on song, settled other than the number 6 slot whereas SA will be in a very unfamiliar, possibly vulnerable situation. Bowler's shootout for mine.

 

[Jono]

Its tight, but I think the fact that when Steyn is at his best he's making batsmen play and miss a heap and then getting them out LBW lends itself for people to think he's not "dominating" as much as MJ, who is hitting the ****s on the body and having them duck for cover, and then getting them out embarrassingly at short leg.

They're both incredibly awesome and "dominating" in their own way.

 

[hendrix]

Steyn has the best strike rate of any of the ATG bowlers. This is a guy who bowls teams out for 45, 47, 49.

Yes he has Philander but Johnson had Siddle and Harris.

Already people are justifiably making a case for him to be the greatest strike bowler of all time.

 

[sphynx]

And Johnson's just performed arguably the greatest bowling performance in the oldest running series of the sport itself, he might not hold the record number of wickets, but for pure impact on the opposition, I've seen none better. Pretty fair achievement when looking through pantheon of greats that have come before him in the Ashes.......

As I said, I can only compare him to what I know best, Johnson at his zenith is every bit as good as a young Dennis Lillee and more destructive than Glenn McGrath, thats the biggest compliment I can give him.

 

[hendrix]

And Johnson's just performed arguably the greatest bowling performance in the oldest running series of the sport itself, he might not hold the record number of wickets, but for pure impact on the opposition, I've seen none better. Pretty fair achievement when looking through pantheon of greats that have come before him in the Ashes.......

I don't get it. Are we talking about most destructive fast bowlers or just most destructive Australian and Englishmen?

 

[hendrix]

Its tight, but I think the fact that when Steyn is at his best he's making batsmen play and miss a heap and then getting them out LBW lends itself for people to think he's not "dominating" as much as MJ, who is hitting the ****s on the body and having them duck for cover, and then getting them out embarrassingly at short leg.

Well, one clearly a more effective way of getting good batsmen out.

TBH I think Steyn has probably sent just as many batsmen to hospital as Johnson. He also bowls just as fast when he wants to.

 

[Jono]

This really is much of a muchness in any case. Both players' ceilings/roofs/canopies/housetops/domes/caps/insert random word people want to use instead of the perfectly sufficient word "peak" are extremely high.

When both Steyn and Johnson are on, they are ****ing on.

 

[NUFAN]

Mitch Johnson. He's a steggler.

 

[wiff]

This really is much of a muchness in any case. Both players' ceilings/roofs/canopies/housetops/domes/caps/insert random word people want to use instead of the perfectly sufficient word "peak" are extremely high.

When both Steyn and Johnson are on, they are ****ing on.

But when they're off, Johnson is worse better.

 

[Jono]

But when they're off, Johnson is worse better.

True. When Steyn is having an off series, like the last one, he gets 9 wickets in a test.

 

[Cabinet96]

Right, I see. That's a pretty firm statement to be making after the fact, though, given SA won the very next year.

I agree tbf. He's talking about a pre Philander test attack where England clearly had the better spinner and third seamer, even if they had no one as good as Steyn.