Am I the only person who thinks Kallis was a better player than Tendulkar?

[the big bambino]

I wont fight over the stats bcos while its interesting I have a par tay to get to. I agree with Bill Lawry whose seen most of the players mentioned here and he reckons Sobers was the best of the lot. No doubt.

 

[Prince EWS]

As much as I'd love to have a great big belly laugh at that, I'm pretty sure it was a typo and he meant to say "wouldn't".

 

[Black_Warrior]

Just out of curiosity, the Pakistan and Indian teams that Sobers played against were they minnow standard like Bangladesh and Zimbabwe of now? If so then why do people claim sobers was the best of all time based on that? Another question, Can anyone tell me if the teams Beefy played against early on in his career post WSC were really good enough to be called strong? I heard that a few teams were weakend.

Because he didn't just own India and Pakistan but pretty much everyone else. Also India and Pakistan then while weak teams, were not as bad as the minnows today.

 

[smash84]

Because he didn't just own India and Pakistan but pretty much everyone else. Also India and Pakistan then while weak teams, were not as bad as the minnows today.

It doesn't seem that he owned NZ and Aus

 

[Black_Warrior]

It doesn't seem that he owned NZ and Aus

I am not sure what the stats are but if you ask the players he played against, you will get your answer. Ian Chappell is from Australia who played against him and just ask him about Sobers.

 

[OverratedSanity]

The word minnow is thrown about too much. A minnow is a team that cannot even compete against test opposition. It's not just about win-loss records, but how badly they play. Bang/Zim in the last decade or so have hardly had a handful of tests where they've even caused other test sides trouble, let alone win games. Not sure how India and Pakistan did back then but it would be unfair to call them minnows I think

 

[Black_Warrior]

The word minnow is thrown about too much. A minnow is a team that cannot even compete against test opposition. It's not just about win-loss records, but how badly they play. Bang/Zim in the last decade or so have hardly had a handful of tests where they've even caused other test sides trouble, let alone win games. Not sure how India and Pakistan did back then but it would be unfair to call them minnows I think

Actually Bangladesh at home cannot be considered minnows anymore now. And Zimbabwe have beaten Pakistan at home this year. I don't think either team have played like minnows this year.

 

[GIMH]

You are so new here.

I wish I could tag @GIMH.

why?

you can easily get his attention just #freddie

Secret.

double whammy from you

I've been following the thread anyway but...

 

[OverratedSanity]

Actually Bangladesh at home cannot be considered minnows anymore now. And Zimbabwe have beaten Pakistan at home this year. I don't think either team have played like minnows this year.

Was talking about the last 10 years or so

 

[Black_Warrior]

Was talking about the last 10 years or so

I know. Was just saying that things are slowly changing now.

 

[Jassy]

Tendulkar undoubtedly is the best batsmanof the era. But quite a few are ahead of him as players IMHO. Imran, Kallis, Pollock, Gilly, Sanga and perhaps Murali for sure in test matches. ODIs he has very few rivals. Dhoni, Bevan Symonds, Gilly and Jayasuriya are notables.

 

[Jassy]

Well, if you start dissecting the stats of Sobers like that he is going to fall far too short of expectations as well. Just like the other all rounders that you are portraying

Guess how does Sobers get to an average almost 58. By cashing in on the minnows of the time i.e. India and Pakistan. He averages almost 90 against both of them. Batting against the best team of his time i.e. Australia he average just 43. Against NZ he averages only 23. It is only against England that he makes his name by having an average of 60. How does that compare against Kallis?

Now coming to his bowing his second suit Against different countries

Avg SR
Australia 39.68 95.9
England 32.57 85.9
India 25.69 72.8
NZ 35.89 116.1
Pakistan 113.50 356.2

Now how does record compare to any of the other all rounders. None of the other all rounders are so weak in their second suit than Sobers. And Sobers's batting is padded up by cashing on the minnow attacks of India and Pakistan. So how does that make him all that great compared to other all rounders.

And there is too much disparity in his home and away batting average if you remove the indian bowling attack. He averages 100 with the bat in India and 67 at home.

In contrast his batting average in other countries

Australia 46
England 53
NZ 15
Pakistan 32

What is so stellar about this record?

Please do explain.

You cannot say he cashed in against Pakistan and India who were minnows of his time and then use his record in Pakistan against him.

 

[smash84]

You cannot say he cashed in against Pakistan and India who were minnows of his time and then use his record in Pakistan against him.

I highlighted his bowling record the likes of which I have never seen in my life. Have you seen any other bowler praised to the sky with this kind of average and SR?

 

[Mark68]

Also Sachin was a much better leg spinner than Kallis!!!

 

[Jassy]

I highlighted his bowling record the likes of which I have never seen in my life. Have you seen any other bowler praised to the sky with this kind of average and SR?

I really have no opinion on Sobers except that he's one of the top two or three all rounders ever to play the game. I've not watched him and his numbers aren't Bradmanesque so I'd be wary of saying he's definitely better than Imran, Kallis etc. My only point was that you cannot slate a player for having cashed in against minnows and then use a poor record in one of the minnow countries against him. For example, I think Sangakkara is a massively overrated batsman who has cashed in against the weaker sides and easy conditions more than a lot of others. However, when I am talking about his away record I cannot use his 30 something average in Bangladesh against him because it'd have been held against him had he cashed in there anyway.

 

[kyear2]

Pakistan were not minnows. They had Fazal and Hanif among others at the time. What the had were a few injuries and primarily the pitches were just flat as hell, even the one that Han if scored his triple on. India were just weak, in Bradman's time till a fit bit after Sobers. What some would omit is that apart from the pitches being dead Sobers was a spear of a very weak attack and was often used as stock bowler and at that time was still bowling spin, which was his weaker platform.
Additionally Sobers was initially picked for the team, ironically as a spinner and was nurtured into a batsman and took quite a few years and matches to score his first ton and to flourish. Some of hie batting numbers suffered through that period. There after there was no doubt who was the best batsman in world cricket. He is a top 5 batsman of all time. But apparently not seen that way here. Cheers though.

 

[smash84]

I really have no opinion on Sobers except that he's one of the top two or three all rounders ever to play the game. I've not watched him and his numbers aren't Bradmanesque so I'd be wary of saying he's definitely better than Imran, Kallis etc. My only point was that you cannot slate a player for having cashed in against minnows and then use a poor record in one of the minnow countries against him. For example, I think Sangakkara is a massively overrated batsman who has cashed in against the weaker sides and easy conditions more than a lot of others. However, when I am talking about his away record I cannot use his 30 something average in Bangladesh against him because it'd have been held against him had he cashed in there anyway.

Ok, even if you ignore India and Pakistan his bowling stats are not good. To give you an idea his bowling average against Aus is worse than Ishant Sharma's career bowling average. His SR is significantly worse (cbf looking it up) than Ishant.

My main point of contention is that when you start nit picking stats from players' records you are bound to come up with something.

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

I don't think too many people think someone other than Murali was the best off spinner of all time.

I'd like Peter Such to sashay forth into this debate.

 

[Rasimione]

Ok, even if you ignore India and Pakistan his bowling stats are not good. To give you an idea his bowling average against Aus is worse than Ishant Sharma's career bowling average. His SR is significantly worse (cbf looking it up) than Ishant.

My main point of contention is that when you start nit picking stats from players' records you are bound to come up with something.

From what i understand, Sobers was a gun Batsmen sure but his bowling particularly spin was terribad. But then people with rose tinted glasses want us to ignore that. ..

 

[smash84]

From what i understand, Sobers was a gun Batsmen sure but his bowling particularly spin was terribad. But then people with rose tinted glasses want us to ignore that. ..

Yes, and add to that if you start nitpicking his batting it turns out that against Aus and NZ and Australia he wasn't all that either.