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Am I the only person who thinks Kallis was a better player than Tendulkar?

smash84

smash84

The Tiger King
kyear2 said:
Sobers batted at 6 because of the significantly higher bowling load that he bore on the team compared to Kallis. His numbers at the higher positions are all better than what he averaged at No. 6. Sobers is also a legitimate contender for the best batsman after Bradman, yet to see Kallis mentioned in that company.

Miller averaged 36 as top order batsman and averaged 3 WPM with a strike rate of 60 as a bowler. He was was neither good enough as a top order batsman or front line primary bowler to make an ATG XI. Botham ended with a batting average of 33 and a bowling average of 28. If he plas as a batsman he weakens the top order, if he bolws as one of the 4 bowlers, he weakens the bowling attack. Added to his way too short peak and made hay during WSC and the aftermatch.
Imran was godlike in Pakistan, but with the ball didn't average less than 24 in any other country. Averaged 28 in India and Australia, 24 in England and 25 in the caribbean. Batting wise averaged 30 before his injury, and 50 after when hos bowling wasn't quite the same. Scored 4 of his 6 hundreds in that time as well. Again have never heard anyone outside of CW even suggest that Imran was the equal or better to Sobers. He just wasn't.
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Well, if you start dissecting the stats of Sobers like that he is going to fall far too short of expectations as well. Just like the other all rounders that you are portraying

Guess how does Sobers get to an average almost 58. By cashing in on the minnows of the time i.e. India and Pakistan. He averages almost 90 against both of them. Batting against the best team of his time i.e. Australia he average just 43. Against NZ he averages only 23. It is only against England that he makes his name by having an average of 60. How does that compare against Kallis?

Now coming to his bowing his second suit Against different countries

Avg SR
Australia 39.68 95.9
England 32.57 85.9
India 25.69 72.8
NZ 35.89 116.1
Pakistan 113.50 356.2

Now how does record compare to any of the other all rounders. None of the other all rounders are so weak in their second suit than Sobers. And Sobers's batting is padded up by cashing on the minnow attacks of India and Pakistan. So how does that make him all that great compared to other all rounders.

And there is too much disparity in his home and away batting average if you remove the indian bowling attack. He averages 100 with the bat in India and 67 at home.

In contrast his batting average in other countries

Australia 46
England 53
NZ 15
Pakistan 32

What is so stellar about this record?

Please do explain.
 
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D

Dan

Hall of Fame Member
I'm getting a sense of deja vu here.

Are you sure that the same posters haven't made the same arguments in the same way in 654612364879759324 other threads already?

Because it sure feels like it.
 
harsh.ag

harsh.ag

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
kyear2 said:
Sobers batted at 6 because of the significantly higher bowling load that he bore on the team compared to Kallis. His numbers at the higher positions are all better than what he averaged at No. 6. Sobers is also a legitimate contender for the best batsman after Bradman, yet to see Kallis mentioned in that company.

Miller averaged 36 as top order batsman and averaged 3 WPM with a strike rate of 60 as a bowler. He was was neither good enough as a top order batsman or front line primary bowler to make an ATG XI. Botham ended with a batting average of 33 and a bowling average of 28. If he plas as a batsman he weakens the top order, if he bolws as one of the 4 bowlers, he weakens the bowling attack. Added to his way too short peak and made hay during WSC and the aftermatch.
Imran was godlike in Pakistan, but with the ball didn't average less than 24 in any other country. Averaged 28 in India and Australia, 24 in England and 25 in the caribbean. Batting wise averaged 30 before his injury, and 50 after when hos bowling wasn't quite the same. Scored 4 of his 6 hundreds in that time as well. Again have never heard anyone outside of CW even suggest that Imran was the equal or better to Sobers. He just wasn't.
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First of, I am flattered you quoted me twice :)

Now:

- Miller: Averaged 36 as batsman and 23 as bowler (funny how you left the bowling average out when it suited you). SR 60 is pretty damn good. Have you seen John Snow's SR? 59. You want to disqualify him as a frontline ATG bowler. Do it at your own peril. <The Statement in Bold> What does that have to do with anything? It's about a mix of the two abilities, and Miller had that much more than Sobers did.

- Botham: A guy who has 14 test hundreds and 27 5-wicket hauls. Yeah he ended with something else. So what? Right there is strong argument for him to be called a better AR than anybody else ever.

-Imran: Yeah, averaging 24, yuck right! I mean 24, 2 whole runs per wicket. That means he gave out 20 runs per innings!!! Such a major blow! A bowler averaging 24 and 22 isn't a big difference. Get over it. This probably explains your Marshall fetish as well.

I think Miller and Botham are quite the more all-round all-rounders than Sobers. And I am outside CW. If you want, you can call me on my cell and we can have a chat.
 
Migara

Migara

International Coach
benchmark00 said:
Haha Murali placed in there despite being a gumby in both the other two facets of the game.
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Murali was a brilliant fieldsman in his youth. easily a class above tendulkar in that aspect. but these are two guys who stacked up incredible numbers against their names, namely runs and wickets. Both of them have done it in tests and odis too.
 
OverratedSanity

OverratedSanity

Request Your Custom Title Now!
kyear2 said:
Sobers batted at 6 because of the significantly higher bowling load that he bore on the team compared to Kallis. His numbers at the higher positions are all better than what he averaged at No. 6. Sobers is also a legitimate contender for the best batsman after Bradman, yet to see Kallis mentioned in that company.

Miller averaged 36 as top order batsman and averaged 3 WPM with a strike rate of 60 as a bowler. He was was neither good enough as a top order batsman or front line primary bowler to make an ATG XI. Botham ended with a batting average of 33 and a bowling average of 28. If he plas as a batsman he weakens the top order, if he bolws as one of the 4 bowlers, he weakens the bowling attack. Added to his way too short peak and made hay during WSC and the aftermatch.
Imran was godlike in Pakistan, but with the ball didn't average less than 24 in any other country. Averaged 28 in India and Australia, 24 in England and 25 in the caribbean. Batting wise averaged 30 before his injury, and 50 after when hos bowling wasn't quite the same. Scored 4 of his 6 hundreds in that time as well. Again have never heard anyone outside of CW even suggest that Imran was the equal or better to Sobers. He just wasn't.
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Now that's just awful. Here's what you've done:

Step 1: Look at which all rounder is rated the best ever by most people

Step 2: Look for the closest competitors to him statistically and anecdotally

Step 3: Poke holes in the other players' records and say that this somehow proves beyond doubt that Sobers was the best

Instead of trying to nitpick other great all rounders' records to death, why don't you tell us why Sobers deserves the tag of greatest ever AR. Trying to drag the others down just pisses me off. I mean, what's this crap you come up with repeatedly about imran's bowling average being high in certain countries? It's still less than 30! Guess who else averages less than 30 in every country they played in? No one.

All stats picking like this does is force Imran fans like Smali to point out to you that Sobers' record too is far from spotless.Does the fact that Imran averaged 28 in Australia ( which is apparently not good, now? :huh:) somehow mean Sobers is UNDOUBTEDLY the greatest ever. No. Same way that Sobers averaging only 43 against Australia doesn't make Imran undoubted better. It's such a pedantic back and forth. Considering Sobers/Imran / Miller so far better than any other so as to render comparison mute is simply laughable. There is no Bradman in any cricket discipline other than batting. That's the only fact that matters
 
Migara

Migara

International Coach
Zinzan said:
Indeed. In fact Bradman is really the only cricketer who is universally recognised as the absolute best at his craft which of course makes him unique. The next closest is arguably Warne, as the greatest leg-spinner of all time, although even then there's decent arguments for O'Reilly & Crimmett.
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More than Warne for his leggies Murali will be remembered beter for being the best offie. Probably even ahead of Bradman in that aspect.
 
Prince EWS

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
Migara said:
Probably even ahead of Bradman in that aspect.
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Haha. Look, I've actually got no problem with you going as far as saying Murali was the best bowler of all time; I think I'd even agree. But there's no way he's ahead of Laker by the distance Bradman is of Sobers or Tendulkar. No way.
 
Top_Cat

Top_Cat

Request Your Custom Title Now!
OverratedSanity said:
Now that's just awful. Here's what you've done:

Step 1: Look at which all rounder is rated the best ever by most people

Step 2: Look for the closest competitors to him statistically and anecdotally

Step 3: Poke holes in the other players' records and say that this somehow proves beyond doubt that Sobers was the best

Instead of trying to nitpick other great all rounders' records to death, why don't you tell us why Sobers deserves the tag of greatest ever AR. Trying to drag the others down just pisses me off. I mean, what's this crap you come up with repeatedly about imran's bowling average being high in certain countries? It's still less than 30! Guess who else averages less than 30 in every country they played in? No one.

All stats picking like this does is force Imran fans like Smali to point out to you that Sobers' record too is far from spotless.Does the fact that Imran averaged 28 in Australia ( which is apparently not good, now? :huh:) somehow mean Sobers is UNDOUBTEDLY the greatest ever. No. Same way that Sobers averaging only 43 against Australia doesn't make Imran undoubted better. It's such a pedantic back and forth. Considering Sobers/Imran / Miller so far better than any other so as to render comparison mute is simply laughable. There is no Bradman in any cricket discipline other than batting. That's the only fact that matters
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You are so new here.
 
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Rasimione

Rasimione

U19 Captain
Just out of curiosity, the Pakistan and Indian teams that Sobers played against were they minnow standard like Bangladesh and Zimbabwe of now? If so then why do people claim sobers was the best of all time based on that? Another question, Can anyone tell me if the teams Beefy played against early on in his career post WSC were really good enough to be called strong? I heard that a few teams were weakend.
 
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