Congratulations KP

[grecian]

Does it again. Incredible.

You can play your Lords 2011, Mumbai 2012, Headingley 2012 etc. type knocks, but that just makes him a very good player capable of greatness. Definitely below Clarke for mine.

Black Warrior to say this innings didn't count because there was no ATGs bowling, and Furball to say he did it all with swagger which quintupled his innings.

ENC for me, much of the time.

 

[Jassy]

Meh, let's compare ABD and KP when the former plays an innings of substance from 10/2 against a top class attack as opposed to 300/2. KP is an interesting case and possibly my favourite batsman from the current generation of players. Has a better record away from home than a lot of so-called all time greats too. The only annoying thing with KP is his temperament. Most of the time he seems to get himself out. Left arm spin aside, he doesn't seem to have any weakness. Has dominated everyone from Glenn McGrath and Shane Warne to Dale Steyn and Morne Morkel; not to mention his mauling of the Indian spinners on total minefields last year. A little more patience and he'd probably average 60...but then again he wouldn't be KP. So, so frustrating. Hope he smashes everyone (except India and Australia ofc) from now and gets that average above 50(where it belongs). On a side note, he's similar to Sehwag. Everything from the records to the style of play. One tried to smash Dale Steyn out of the ground on the third ball of an important overseas series played for the number 1 ranking; the other tried to play the hook when there was a test to be saved...ah well, it comes with the territory. Go KP, hope you ton up in the second dig and Australia win. Would be perfect for me.

 

[Son Of Coco]

KP is brilliant to watch when he's on and gets away in an innings, but it's the stuff he's been doing this series to constantly get himself out that keeps him from being a great in my opinion. The contrast was there for all to see yesterday - Cook, who is a lot less talented than Pietersen, got tied down for a while but was fighting to keep his wicket. He weathered the pressure and then played a few shots to balls that were there to hit (before getting out cutting Lyon...) Pietersen, on the other hand, got tied down for a while and then got himself out trying to play a nothing shot to release the pressure when it simply wasn't on.

Being great to watch and being a great aren't necessarily the same thing. He could be though....maybe if the ego wasn't so incredibly large that it stopped him from simply saying to himself 'this blokes bowling a bit too well to me at the moment, I'll just see him off'.

 

[Jono]

KP probably played the three greatest knocks of 2012. He's definitely top 3-4 of his generation. Just don't think he's number 1.

 

[grecian]

KP probably played the three greatest knocks of 2012. He's definitely top 3-4 of his generation. Just don't think he's number 1.

So who are you putting below him then?

Kallis, ABDV, Amla, Clarke, Smith, sanga, Jayawardendene, Cook, Chanderpaul (been playing throughout kp's career), Pujara, Kohli?

 

[Jassy]

Kallis and Chanderpaul are hardly his generation, they debuted about a decade earlier didn't they? From the rest:

1)AbD - It is close but KP is ahead for mine. AbD's got a lot of soft runs and has pummeled the weaker attacks more. Not that there isn't anything wrong with that or that he hasn't scored against good attacks, but he hasn't done it enough until now in my view.
2) Amla - yes he is better than KP.
3)Clarke - yes better than KP
4)Smith - interesting. This is probably the same as Cook vs KP - method vs madness? Take your pick, 50-50.
5)Sanga-have gone over this bloke in detail on another thread so won't bore everyone again. In short -away record not flash for a supposed ATG, has poor averages in about as many countries as he does tons outside the SC. Vastly overrated IMO.
6)Cook-more 'reliable' than KP? Perhaps. But if KP cannot keep his head down and play like Cook does, then Cook cannot play like KP does either. 50-50
7)Pujara-lol
8)Kohli-in ODIs yes, in tests it is not even close

I'd say post Tendulkar's debut, he's definitely in the top 7 or 8. Needs to shelve his ego a little though, I'd agree with that.

 

[grecian]

Kallis and Chanderpaul are hardly his generation, they debuted about a decade earlier didn't they? From the rest:

1)AbD - It is close but KP is ahead for mine. AbD's got a lot of soft runs and has pummeled the weaker attacks more. Not that there isn't anything wrong with that or that he hasn't scored against good attacks, but he hasn't done it enough until now in my view.
2) Amla - yes he is better than KP.
3)Clarke - yes better than KP
4)Smith - interesting. This is probably the same as Cook vs KP - method vs madness? Take your pick, 50-50.
5)Sanga-have gone over this bloke in detail on another thread so won't bore everyone again. In short -away record not flash for a supposed ATG, has poor averages in about as many countries as he does tons outside the SC. Vastly overrated IMO.
6)Cook-more 'reliable' than KP? Perhaps. But if KP cannot keep his head down and play like Cook does, then Cook cannot play like KP does either. 50-50
7)Pujara-lol
8)Kohli-in ODIs yes, in tests it is not even close

I'd say post Tendulkar's debut, he's definitely in the top 7 or 8. Needs to shelve his ego a little though, I'd agree with that.

well the generation thing is awkward and as I said both Kallis and Shiv have played throughout Kps career. I only threw in Kohli because Jono wouldn't have been able to say no, which would have amused me. Sanga so far ahead of KP it's just ridiculous, I can't even believe anyone can say owt else, but I too have carped on about it in other threads, so I dunno.

In summation, Jono is wrong, but TBH that's pretty much the summation of CricketWeb, so no-one should be surprised by his legendary wrongness.

 

[Jassy]

Mate, I've bored everyone with my crap on the other thread about Sanga, so this is my last post on the matter.

In my view, Sanga is the most overrated player of his generation. Any other batsman with his record would be labelled a FTB cough*Sehwag,Yousuf,Inzamam*. His away average away from the subcontinent(excuding Zimbabwe) is hardly great. It is about 40 - a number of other Asian batsmen with similar(read better) records don't even get mentioned. He has poor records in 4/7 test playing countries(again excluding Zimbabwe and Bang). Excuses like SL don't play much hence he finds it hard to adjust(Samaraweera of all the people is a hell of a lot better away from the subcontinent!) or that it somehow can be explained away by form and other factors (1 country - totally fine, 2 countries - okay as long as the others are good, 3 countries - hmmmm, 4?!). Of course cricket is more than just raw stats, MJ bowled so well yesterday but didn't get a wicket to show for it for example. I totally agree with that notion but it is hard to overlook poor records in so many countries. The ultimate straw clutching is when one knock in 2006 against NZ and a Hobart ton (people are quick to point out that not all SL pitches are good for batting but conveniently mention the Hobart knock as if it was some sort of minefield) as proof of his ability to be consistently good in such conditions. Well, MJ has a ton in SA, good old Kumble has one in England, Hughes got 2 in 1 game in SA...etc etc. His overall record is very impressive but dig deep and it isn't that great.

If you are looking for a statistical comparison vis a vis KP, you might want to exclude Zimbabwe and Bangladesh and see that it gets closer. Expect Sanga still wins out by 4-5 points but it'll definitely narrow the gap. Anyways, apologies for derailing the thread. Need to get over my Sanga obsession

As far as KP goes, I think he is a brilliant player. Say what you want about him being pig headed, but any bloke who can make Warne, McGrath, Murali, Steyn look like club level bowlers must be a brilliant batsman. Has problems with patience and ego sure, but he is still a freaking good bat. How you rate him depends on how one rates batsmen in general. If people have a penchant for batsmen who plunder runs at 1 or 2 grounds and play predominantly at home and pad their stats against minnows and rubbish attacks in draws after failures away from home then KP isn't their kind of player. If, however, people prefer a bloke who can make the best in the world bow down to him on his day (and also make rubbish bowlers look good tbf) then KP is your man. A truly once in a generation player. If he can shelve his ego a little he might well go down as an ATG.

 

[grecian]

Yeah sanga will only win out against KP if you exclude zim and bangas by a measly 4or 5 points, pfft hardly anything.

I think I explained before on another thread this stuff about how people do against ATG attacks or rubbish attacks rather ignores how people do against middling attacks when they need the discipline and intelligence to actually win your team tests or draw them from tough situations, Sanga is ****ing brilliant at that, he also played many tests as 'keeper which severly restricted his average.

I probably rate Samaweera ahead of KP too, but hey I'm well-known as not a big KP fan, and I'd admit that was a slightly cray opinion.

BTW this is the thread it's all been discussed in before, n the robot liked my view, but I still haven't wavered.

 

[Jassy]

The keeper thing is arguable. Either it means he was worse than the Dhonis, Haddins and the Priors as a wk/bat or maybe his peak form coincided with the time he kept wicket. It's funny though how the keeping seems to have only affected him in some countries. I don't disagree with the middling attacks point either. Winning test matches for your team is the ultimate objective and obviously Sanga averaging 100 in SL would help SL more than if he were to average 100 in England but from the POV of rating a player I think all these factors should be considered. Then again, everyone has their own criteria, so I am cool with that.

 

[grecian]

The keeper thing is arguable. Either it means he was worse than the Dhonis, Haddins and the Priors as a wk/bat or maybe his peak form coincided with the time he kept wicket. It's funny though how the keeping seems to have only affected him in some countries. I don't disagree with the middling attacks point either. Winning test matches for your team is the ultimate objective and obviously Sanga averaging 100 in SL would help SL more than if he were to average 100 in England but from the POV of rating a player I think all these factors should be considered. Then again, everyone has their own criteria, so I am cool with that.

The fact is he averages about 68 without the gloves, not really sure it's arguable, unless your just feeling particularly argumentative. I think he still averages roughly the same,or better as those three you mentioned with the gloves.

 

[grecian]

Anyway I probably should say congrats KP, I do smear the bloke with hate, he's not my fave player or person, but on his day he's a god, and I do actually appreciate those days. Is he the best English bat of my lifetime, possibly, mind you that's because we've arguably had no great bats in that time. I'd personally put Boycott, Gower and Thorpe ahead of him, and I think Cook and possibly Bell will surpass him, but hey he's in the top percentile

 

[Jono]

So who are you putting below him then?

Kallis, ABDV, Amla, Clarke, Smith, sanga, Jayawardendene, Cook, Chanderpaul (been playing throughout kp's career), Pujara, Kohli?

Nah Kallis, Smith, Sanga, Mahela, Chanders etc.aren't his generation (from how we were describing it anyway). It was more the "debuted 2004-2005 generation" I guess.

If we expand the generation to include Sanga and Graeme Smith than its a whole different ball-game I guess.

Chanderpaul and Kallis aren't even close to his generation I'd have thought, but its all subjective I guess.

 

[grecian]

Nah Kallis, Smith, Sanga, Mahela, Chanders etc.aren't his generation (from how we were describing it anyway). It was more the "debuted 2004-2005 generation" I guess.

If we expand the generation to include Sanga and Graeme Smith than its a whole different ball-game I guess.

Chanderpaul and Kallis aren't even close to his generation I'd have thought, but its all subjective I guess.

Well if your putting his generation in such a small bracket, then I guess your right, which is almost a first for you, kudos.

 

[Jono]

That stings.

 

[benchmark00]

A generation doesn't span the length of 1-2 years.

You mean the class of 04/05.

 

[91Jmay]

Well if youe putting his generation in such a small bracket, then I guess your right, which is almost a first for you, kudos.

Anyone after 2004 really isn't a small bracket is it. 9 years worth of guys who have come up around that time.

 

[grecian]

Anyone after 2004 really isn't a small bracket is it. 9 years worth of guys who have come up around that time.

Perhaps, but he didn't say that hence why I laughed and pointed.

 

[Jono]

What do you mean me, it was Furball who made the post in the first place ya bum.

Leave me alone.

 

[grecian]

Furball is already crying into an Arsenal shaped piss-pot, so you'll have to do for now.