Wisden names All Time World XI

[Esperance]

i will retort back

 

[Esperance]

in a homogeneous manner

 

[Agent Nationaux]

I am with the old timers on the Miller thing, of course you can't compare Lillee to Imran as a batsman but Lillee was faster in his prime and he could bowl every delivery ever known up to that time. So I agree Imran could bat and is an allrounder of the Miller variety except for the fact that Miller was miles ahead of Imran as a Batsman. If I had to just pick a bowler I would pick Lindwall ahead of Miller and Imran. Thing with Imran is, his era was an era overloaded with phenomenal allrounders who bowled very fast or not express but were somewhat slower but complete masters of the bowling art. Botham, Imran, Akram, Dev, Hadlee, Marshall and it depended on where they played and who they played. Against the Australians Imran was nowhere near as effective as Botham was, gee, Botham destroyed so many Australian careers that most were never seen again. On the reverse side of the coin, Imran and Dev were far better on sub-continental wickets. I idolise dozens of past greats, my favorite batsman in my time was Steve Waugh, for the simple reason that he saved our butts literally dozens of times, a batsman who turned many certain defeats in victories and in a few cases draws when the seemed shot ducks. Nearly every time he came out to bat in the 1990's the score was like 3 or 4 for less than 50. So why in hell wouldn't he have been my favorite, even though Tendulkar and Ponting are a bit ahead of him but not by very much. His record isn't pumped up by playing so many tests against very weak teams like Bangladesh and Zimbabwe like in Tendulkars case. Lara can be fairly rated slightly higher than Waugh but in a very bad situation I would want Waugh first. My ultimate idol isn't surprising, THE DON... who was a god for sure.

I agree that Miller was the better batsman than Imran (so was Botham) but Imran worked damn hard to improve himself. He averaged 50 plus in the second half of his career and that's not something you ignore. As for bowling, he brings in a dimension the others like Lillee don't - reverse swing - and that makes him a better bowler than Miller in my eyes.

 

[SpofforthLohman]

I agree that Miller was the better batsman than Imran (so was Botham) but Imran worked damn hard to improve himself. He averaged 50 plus in the second half of his career and that's not something you ignore. As for bowling, he brings in a dimension the others like Lillee don't - reverse swing - and that makes him a better bowler than Miller in my eyes.

Sure I understand that reverse swing is hard to bat against but that view seems a bit simplistic to me, there is so much more to bowling. Normal swing can be hard to bat against. In things like this I have to listen to those who saw Miller play as I wasn't around then. The word from them all is that Miller is one of the all time greatest fast bowlers ever, a bit quicker than Imran and I think Miller had less soft opposition than players from our time. In those days you didn't pay too much notice of a mans test average, what mattered were tests against England as that was much better opposition than anyone until the 50's when the West Indies rose to become world class. I know there are many ways to look at it so if there was no gap at all between them I would pick Miller for courage, after all he was a WWII pilot, how he ever survived that is anyone's guess. When it gets down to it, I never ever seen Imrans name even suggested as that good he makes the all time XI, I just can't see how. I have seen quite a few bowlers I think were better than Imran in my own time... like McGrath, like Lillee, Ambrose, Roberts Holding so the teams will reflect where the selector comes from. No Indian making this list would not pick Tendulkar straight after penning in Bradman's name. I love this discussion, there is so much to this thread, it's great.

 

[Acko88]

Hi guys,

I thought it would be interesting to pick a world XI from the modern era(since Sri Lanka entered test cricket in 1982) with one little caveat. The team must feature a player from every test playing nation. So aynway, here's my team.

1. Tamim Iqbal(Bangladseh)
2. Virender Sehwag(India)
3. Hashim Amla(SA)
4. Viv Richards(WI)
5. Kumar Sangakarra(SL)
6. Andy Flower+(Zimbabwe)
7. Ian Botham(England)
8. Imran Khan(Pakistan)
9. Richard Hadlee(NZ)
10. Malcolm Marshall(WI)
11. Shane Warne(Australia)

When picking these sides I like to assume you could actually play a game with them. I've tried to pick as many guys as I could who could turn a match through sheer will. I expect to cop some flak for not picking Kallis, but he simply failed to deliver in this area over his career. For all his runs and great record, he didn't drag his side to victory often enough, like Botham or Hadlee for example.

Anyway I'd love to see some other peoples picks.

 

[smash84]

Sure I understand that reverse swing is hard to bat against but that view seems a bit simplistic to me, there is so much more to bowling. Normal swing can be hard to bat against. In things like this I have to listen to those who saw Miller play as I wasn't around then. The word from them all is that Miller is one of the all time greatest fast bowlers ever, a bit quicker than Imran and I think Miller had less soft opposition than players from our time..

Interestingly enough Richie Benaud, who played with Keith Miller, himself chose Imran ahead of Miller

 

[kyear2]

Sure I understand that reverse swing is hard to bat against but that view seems a bit simplistic to me, there is so much more to bowling. Normal swing can be hard to bat against. In things like this I have to listen to those who saw Miller play as I wasn't around then. The word from them all is that Miller is one of the all time greatest fast bowlers ever, a bit quicker than Imran and I think Miller had less soft opposition than players from our time. In those days you didn't pay too much notice of a mans test average, what mattered were tests against England as that was much better opposition than anyone until the 50's when the West Indies rose to become world class. I know there are many ways to look at it so if there was no gap at all between them I would pick Miller for courage, after all he was a WWII pilot, how he ever survived that is anyone's guess. When it gets down to it, I never ever seen Imrans name even suggested as that good he makes the all time XI, I just can't see how. I have seen quite a few bowlers I think were better than Imran in my own time... like McGrath, like Lillee, Ambrose, Roberts Holding so the teams will reflect where the selector comes from. No Indian making this list would not pick Tendulkar straight after penning in Bradman's name. I love this discussion, there is so much to this thread, it's great.

While Miller may have been seen as a better batsman than Imran, he also batted higher in the order as a specialist batsman and an average of 37 is not good enough for a top order batsman or a batting All Rounder in an ATG team or perspective. Additionally he played immediately after the war against some ordinary bowling attacks from England (vs whom he still averaged only 33 and in the UK averaged 24), South Africa (avg 33) and India (an especially weak attack vs which he averaged 37) and flat pitches and a worn out attack in the W.I (especially in '55 after Ramdin and Valentine were well past their brief peak and over used) which is the only region/country that he averaged over 41 (avg of 73). So if as you say It's tests vs England that mattered, in 29 Tests against them he average just over 33 with 3 Hundreds and in England in 15 Tests he averaged 24.40 with 1 solitary hundred.

As a bowler even though his average was similar to Imran's his strike rate and WPM were well below ATG status and not even that great overall. Over his career of 55 Test matches he took 170 wickets at an average of 22.97 at a strike rate of 61.5 with 7 five wicket hauls and he took 3.09 Wickets Per Match. Additionally this was aided by the fact that they had the luxury of a new ball every 55 overs in the '48 series and he was primarily used as a new ball shock bowler and hardly had to bowl with the old ball, a luxury Imran never had (though he managed to used it to his advantage) and he still out performed him. Again, as you stated, its his performances vs England that should count and vs the old enemy he took 87 wickets at an average of 22.4 at a s/r of 65.7 and took 3 WPM. In England he averaged 24.3 with a s/r of 72.1 and took less than 3 wpm with 2 five wicket hauls. Also of note is that in the W.I where he averaged 73 with the bat, he averaged over 32 with the ball as Walcott took to him quite nicely.

Additionally where you said that Imran's name is never mentioned in any ATG teams, it has been named in considerably more than Miller's and I can only find 1 ATG that featured Keith Miller and that wasn't exactly a site know for their cricket acumen. Also while Imran can be fitted into an ATG team at 8 and be a front line bowler and add depth to the batting lineup. Miller as shown above was not good enough a bowler to be chosen in an ATG team as a front line bowler and if he batted in the top order he would significantly weaken the batting. Also to your point about reverse swing, yes conventional swing is also difficult to bowl against, but the old ball doesn't swing and so reverse swing comes into play with the older ball thus it added to your attack if you have a bowler who can reverse it later in the innings before the 2nd new ball.

So I don't fully understand your argument for Miller over Imran and I wouldn't even bother to respond to your comments on IVA and MM.

 

[The Battlers Prince]

Interestingly enough Richie Benaud, who played with Keith Miller, himself chose Imran ahead of Miller

Benaud's the kind of brown nosing bastard who'd do that to make sure people didn't think he favoured his own country.
Personally I can't decide between the two of them.
Edit: Perhaps I should say, I don't choose between them.

 

[kyear2]

Benaud's the kind of brown nosing bastard who'd do that to make sure people didn't think he favoured his own country.
Personally I can't decide between the two of them.
Edit: Perhaps I should say, I don't choose between them.

Really?

For the wicketkeeper shortlist he chose Gilchrist, Healy and Marsh. Missing any names there?

Knott maybe?

For the fast bowlers he choose

Lindwall, Lillee, McGrath, Larwood, Barnes and Trueman. Missing any names?

For the spinners shortlist he choose Warne, O'Reilly and Quadir.

It appears he had a bias for Aussies (understandable) and one against Murali and w.i quicks from the '70's and '80's.

So no, I don't believe he was afraid to show his biases. Probably just believes Imran was better and I do believe he was better.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Benaud's the kind of brown nosing bastard who'd do that to make sure people didn't think he favoured his own country.
Personally I can't decide between the two of them.
Edit: Perhaps I should say, I don't choose between them.

I don't know.... Benaud did the exact opposite by picking Lillee in his XI and not even naming any of the West Indian bowlers in his shortlist

 

[smash84]

Benaud's the kind of brown nosing bastard who'd do that to make sure people didn't think he favoured his own country.
.

Edit: kyear2 and OS have already answered this

 

[The Battlers Prince]

In a round about way you seam to concur. I really don't like Richie and as such haven't looked at his XI recently. Just a chance to have a go at the crackpot old fool (I did it again). Having looked at his shortlists etc it is made up of Aus and Pom fast bowlers.
It must have to do with how he viewed them in his early days?
He may also be like a lot of people who don't agree with Murali's action.
Lastly, on Miller, the added fielding might be in his favour. Plus he's almost a perfect twelth man better than Imran. As he can bat competently at the top and also bowl well with the new ball. With the choice I'd take either in most any side.

 

[The Battlers Prince]

Edit: kyear2 and OS have already answered this

Don't wobbly eye me Smelly

 

[smash84]

Don't wobbly eye me Smelly

nothing that you don't deserve on such silly statements

 

[The Battlers Prince]

I thought advocating Miller would get your back up most of all.
I actually like how both Miller and Imran were so loved by women wherever they went. It's just such a random similarity.

 

[SpofforthLohman]

Interestingly enough Richie Benaud, who played with Keith Miller, himself chose Imran ahead of Miller

Well the great man has his reasons I suppose. He might have wanted an international balance and already had enough Aussies in his team. Benaud's opinion is the opposite to say, THE DON's on this matter. He picked Miller ahead of all but Sobers.

 

[smash84]

Well the great man has his reasons I suppose. He might have wanted an international balance and already had enough Aussies in his team. Benaud's opinion is the opposite to say, THE DON's on this matter. He picked Miller ahead of all but Sobers.

Needless to say that Richie's team is MILES ahead of the Don's alleged team in terms of quality

 

[SpofforthLohman]

I thought advocating Miller would get your back up most of all.
I actually like how both Miller and Imran were so loved by women wherever they went. It's just such a random similarity.

Well they were both like Rock stars mate, Miller had lived through the horrors of the air war, to him cricket was easy and meant to be fun and he reckoned facing fast bowlers much safer than facing a Messerscmidt. He came out of it in good health and from that day on Keith lived life to the fullest. I remember seeing him talk on cricket shows and he had an aura about him. Imran was like Keith, fit elite athlete, and handsome, Imran is basically a prince and so was Miller the excitement machine. Two very unique characters

 

[SpofforthLohman]

Needless to say that Richie's team is MILES ahead of the Don's alleged team in terms of quality

It is not Don's alleged team, IT WAS his team. What you say is tough to prove, especially with the fact that Bradman would not be available to play for Benauds team. Even a weakish side that has Bradman in it becomes very unlikely to lose. I can't remember the team Richie picked.

 

[smash84]

why wouldn't Richie's team have Bradman in it?