***Official*** West Indies in India 2013

[Flem274*]

Disclaimer: Hendrix rates Jeets

 

[Shri]

Ojha is miles better than Ashwin and I don't even think Ashwin has more potential, tbh. Just because he has a couple more variations doesn't mean he'll ever be very good.

Ojha is like Herath-lite, while Ashwin...well I want to say Mendis-lite but he's not that bad. He's just not particularly good.

Like Kumble in style. Obv not in substance but then he will always be a threat in India and even if he becomes a 35+ average bowler abroad, he won't be worse than Kumble or Bhajji. His batting will always win him a spot ahead of Ojha.

 

[JontyPanesar]

Tbf I think it was more a combination of factors like the quality of batting and Ashwin bowling poorly rather than the pitches not being spin friendly. Ojha didn't really do anything different from what he usually does.

Didn't mean to make my point all-encompassing, surely other factors mattered too. Largely agree with your statement except...

I'm still not convinced that the entire English lineup could stand up to subcontinental spin. Cook did his usual waiting-for-the-ball-on-his-pads-or-the-one-that's-short&wide strat; it works against rubbish bowling that can't focus on the right line&length and Ashwin and the Indian bowlers were happy to oblige. KP was KP; we already knew that. Two pitches played flat, slow, and low (Ahmedabad & Nagpur), one pitch really turned from day 1 (Mumbai, the only real turner), and one was really just more ready-made for reverse swing than spin (Kolkata). If the pitches were more like the ones in the Aus series, I don't know if India comes any closer to winning because Swann and Panesar are brilliant and I wish to take nothing away from them, but I don't think the English batsmen would've been so comfortable aside from KP. I fear Cook fans will start a mob against me any moment now...

 

[JontyPanesar]

Ojha is miles better than Ashwin and I don't even think Ashwin has more potential, tbh. Just because he has a couple more variations doesn't mean he'll ever be very good.

Ojha is like Herath-lite, while Ashwin...well I want to say Mendis-lite but he's not that bad. He's just not particularly good.

Ashwin has a better action for giving it more of a rip, which he does. By definition for me, he has more upside. Same way all wrist spinners have more upside than finger spinners. I don't really care that much for Ashwin's variations though his topspinner really dips and I think a slider is handy in England

 

[hendrix]

It remains to be seen whether Ashwin can develop the control that Kumble had, but I think if India are going with a 4 man attack outside of the SC than Ojha has to take that spot for now and the batting shouldn't really factor in.

 

[Shri]

Didn't mean to make my point all-encompassing, surely other factors mattered too. Largely agree with your statement except...

I'm still not convinced that the entire English lineup could stand up to subcontinental spin. Cook did his usual waiting-for-the-ball-on-his-pads-or-the-one-that's-short&wide strat; it works against rubbish bowling that can't focus on the right line&length and Ashwin and the Indian bowlers were happy to oblige. KP was KP; we already knew that. Two pitches played flat, slow, and low (Ahmedabad & Nagpur), one pitch really turned from day 1 (Mumbai, the only real turner), and one was really just more ready-made for reverse swing than spin (Kolkata). If the pitches were more like the ones in the Aus series, I don't know if India comes any closer to winning because Swann and Panesar are brilliant and I wish to take nothing away from them, but I don't think the English batsmen would've been so comfortable aside from KP. I fear Cook fans will start a mob against me any moment now...

Swann and Monty were awesome. Credit where its due. But we were carrying Sachin and Ash in the series. Ashwin admitted there was a technical flaw in his bowling with his foot/body position while bowling and went back and corrected it before the Aus series. Cook found a way that worked for him and succeeded. Credit to him. Wonder how much of an impact Andy Flower's batting advice had on English batsmen. One guy who played spin in India ridiculously well in the 90s.

 

[JontyPanesar]

The pitches weren't traditional spinning wickets in that there was not bounce at all for good, classical spin bowlers like Ojha.

They're the type of pitches on which Jadeja and Panesar do well - flatter, quicker, you-miss-I-hit type bowlers. Exactly the type of bowlers I hate watching.

I wouldn't call Ojha classical tbh...and certainly not more classical than Panesar. Look at the straightness and height of their arms. Panesar's action is going to get more revs nearly every time.

Panesar cops way too much for his style of bowling. Somehow he had a bad tour of NZ because he wasn't a match-winner or something? Yeah, flat pitches in NZ of all places are where we should be rating spinners. Panesar bowled some crackerjacks in the Pak series in UAE (where the moronic myth that Swann and Panesar only lose together really started to gain traction). Panesar is not Jadeja either. He has a great action and gives it a serious rip. Jaddu throws his darts from roundarm and is only starting to adjust this so that he can actually put some revolutions on those darts. To Jaddu's credit, I think he's finally starting to correct this and grow from the title of India's Paul Harris.

Panesar: high-arm & fast pace, most revs
Ojha: Roundish-arm, slow to moderate pace, fewer revs
Jaddu: Roundest arm, fast to moderate pace, least revs

Seems to me you care most about pace. But in that case, you should like Ashwin. He's hardly a darter.

 

[JontyPanesar]

Swann and Monty were awesome. Credit where its due. But we were carrying Sachin and Ash in the series. Ashwin admitted there was a technical flaw in his bowling with his foot/body position while bowling and went back and corrected it before the Aus series. Cook found a way that worked for him and succeeded. Credit to him. Wonder how much of an impact Andy Flower's batting advice had on English batsmen. One guy who played spin in India ridiculously well in the 90s.

If you actually watch how Cook batted in India, it wasn't really any different from what he did in the UAE. Only fundamental difference imo was that Pakistan had the quality in their bowling to expose his flaws, while Ashwin was just too wayward with his l&l. Credit to Cook in that it worked. Not sure I rate Cook that much more highly as a result though.

I do think there was a lot of rubbish written about what was wrong with his action. According to Sanjay and Boycs somehow he wasn't putting enough body in his action to get revs (seriously, do they want to do a swimsuit contest among the greatest spinners...it won't be pretty). And then there were those who whined about his variations. The carrom ball is useless but that's not the reason Ashwin struggled. Ashwin's bowling spelled doom from the NZ series; he picked up a bunch of wickets bowling on middle and leg stump and getting some naive Kiwi to hang his bat out, catch the inside edge to be caught at leg slip. Decent batsmen arent going to make such mistakes, especially not in a 4 test series

 

[hendrix]

What I mean when I say that Ojha is a classical spinner is that he uses deception in the air as well as off the pitch. He varies his pace and flight like a classical spinner and thus picks up stumpings occasionally.

Panesar is virtually metronomic with his pace and flight.

 

[JontyPanesar]

Disclaimer: Hendrix rates Jeets

Well that makes two of us

 

[hendrix]

basically I think any batsman that's comfortable coming down the wicket should be able to easily negotiate Panesar.

 

[hendrix]

Well that makes two of us

I'm rating this JontyPanesar poster.

 

[hendrix]

Seems to me you care most about pace. But in that case, you should like Ashwin. He's hardly a darter.

I don't dislike Ashwin. I would say that it's not just pace, but dip and drift, and I've never seen any of that from Ashwin. I suppose Ajmal doesn't really use that either and he's still awesome, but that's probably why I enjoy watching Herath bowl more.

 

[JontyPanesar]

What I mean when I say that Ojha is a classical spinner is that he uses deception in the air as well as off the pitch. He varies his pace and flight like a classical spinner and thus picks up stumpings occasionally.

Panesar is virtually metronomic with his pace and flight.

Yeah I get what you were trying to say, but I don't think Monty needs a rank turner to be superb. He does have a quick-ish pace, but he makes up for it with the rip he gives on the ball, and that requires real skill. I don't like Paul Harris-type bowlers, who don't give it any sort of rip, and just rely on accuracy. Kumble gave it a rip but with his high-arm, it was all about varying the amount of dip and bounce on his top-spinners.

 

[JontyPanesar]

basically I think any batsman that's comfortable coming down the wicket should be able to easily negotiate Panesar.

Idk, go back and see how Younis Khan played him in the UAE. Those pitches were slow turners, so batsmen did have time. Nevertheless, Panesar had him in knots and took care of him with superb deliveries. I think we'd both agree Younis is all class versus spin.

 

[Maximas]

Ashwin has become better at getting dip and drift of late, but before the Aus test tour he was bowling quite flat through the air, at bit of his dip also comes from his height.

It's not all about revs and dip though, it's about guile, using your variations well, and working out a batsman, that's the reason I rate Herath so highly, he has few tools available (doesn't spin it that hard, short, not that much overspin) yet he gets wickets in all conditions.

 

[JontyPanesar]

I don't dislike Ashwin. I would say that it's not just pace, but dip and drift, and I've never seen any of that from Ashwin. I suppose Ajmal doesn't really use that either and he's still awesome, but that's probably why I enjoy watching Herath bowl more.

Maybe I'll try to compile some videos of his top spinners in that Oz home series and some of the sliders from this current series. He's improving leaps and bounds in those departments. In that Oz series, he was giving it outrageous flight and it was dropping like it was in free fall (probably a little too full in length but still a sight to enjoy).

 

[JontyPanesar]

Ashwin has become better at getting dip and drift of late, but before the Aus test tour he was bowling quite flat through the air, at bit of his dip also comes from his height.

It's not all about revs and dip though, it's about guile, using your variations well, and working out a batsman, that's the reason I rate Herath so highly, he has few tools available (doesn't spin it that hard, short, not that much overspin) yet he gets wickets in all conditions.

You're thinking of the previous Indian 'off-spinner' (WELCOME TO WORLD SERIES OF DARTS!)
Ashwin has never been afraid to flight the ball. He's just inaccurate and likes to bowl to whacky plans way too early into his spells.

 

[hendrix]

Idk, go back and see how Younis Khan played him in the UAE. Those pitches were slow turners, so batsmen did have time. Nevertheless, Panesar had him in knots and took care of him with superb deliveries. I think we'd both agree Younis is all class versus spin.

hmmm I didn't watch that series, but yeah, Younis is the man.

I actually like most of the international spinners right now, including Lyon. I guess they all have some limitations and we should stop expecting them to be Warne or Murali.

I like Ojha quite a bit so it was frustrating for me to see Jadeja picked ahead of him for the Aus series. The fact that Jadeja ended up doing so well due to Aussie ineptness as well as pitches that suited him to a tee really annoyed me, because it was such a negative tactic. They know Ojha's a better bowler but it seems they'd decided upon the most risk-free method to win the series.

 

[hendrix]

Maybe I'll try to compile some videos of his top spinners in that Oz home series and some of the sliders from this current series. He's improving leaps and bounds in those departments. In that Oz series, he was giving it outrageous flight and it was dropping like it was in free fall (probably a little too full in length but still a sight to enjoy).

that's good to hear. In the NZ series before that - which was the last time I gave him a good, proper look - he didn't have those skills. Will be quite interested in his development.