**Official** New Zealand Domestic Season 2013/2014

[Flem274*]

Pitch doesn't look too bad based on admittedly a few minutes of footage, but I think Wellington just had a mare with the ball. When you're bowling a gimme every over the pitch always seems a lot kinder.

But you're right that spinners don't really enjoy the early season, though it would be good if one took wickets early on anyway so we could take them seriously when we get to the late season "two spinners in every game" stage.

 

[Prince EWS]

Given that the rest of the bowling attack was getting bossed around at 4rpo, and the pitch sounds as docile as a 2 month old kitten, 4/120 seems pretty decent to me, especially given the early season pastings he's received in other years.

Yeah no-one's saying he's had an outstanding match but it's definitely a decent start. He was the only one to apply any control when the top three were hammering away and he picked up the wickets when the tide turned. Certainly a better performance than he usually puts in during early-season PS matches.

 

[Bahnz]

Anyway, Papps seems to have missed out on the top order free for all.. First points to Son of Rodney.

 

[Flem274*]

How many runs does Redmond have to score before we consider him?

How big do you think Howsie's explosion will be if we do pick him?

 

[Prince EWS]

Anyway, Papps seems to have missed out on the top order free for all.. First points to Son of Rodney.

I bet you $10 Papps scores more PS and FT runs combined this season than Redmond anyway.

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

How many runs does Redmond have to score before we consider him?

Bradmanesque. I don't see it happening even if he scores a hatful.

The one thing he has on his side is that he's from the Hegemony.

 

[Mike5181]

Otago's attack is pretty terrible without Wagner. Butler and Wells are decent, but there's not much else there. They need Duffy's development to go really well.

 

[Flem274*]

I bet you Redmond makes more serious runs in the Shield than Papps does.

I don't have any money.

 

[Hurricane]

How many runs does Redmond have to score before we consider him?

How big do you think Howsie's explosion will be if we do pick him?

He's had a run before and the selectors would probably prefer Flynn as the latter has done more at test level. So I would say that if he can get a double that would be helpful. Failing that 4 centuries this season - and he breaks the door down. Doubles are the currency our selectors deal in.

 

[Prince EWS]

I bet you Redmond makes more serious runs in the Shield than Papps does.

I don't have any money.

We'd only end up squabbling over what qualified as "serious" at the end of the season. I'd be already chalking this one up to Wellington bowling pies on a flat wicket for example.

 

[Bahnz]

I bet you $10 Papps scores more PS and FT runs combined this season than Redmond anyway.

Haha, you're on!

 

[SteveNZ]

For Hurricane's benefit I've got a list of Fast Bowlers to Watch

In The Thick of It
Southee
Boult
Wagner

Nearly There - Just a Few More Wickets
Gillespie
Bracewell
Milne
Butler

Good Domestix but Not Really in the Frame Yet
Henry
Wheeler
McClenaghan
Bennett

Interested in this...Butler ahead of Henry, who toured with NZ A, and Mitch not in the frame? On the basis of those feeble floaty long-hops Gillespie was bowling yesterday, I'd swap him and A.McKay too

 

[Prince EWS]

There's a lot more to be gained out of sending Henry on an A tour than Butler; I don't think it necessary means Henry should be closer to the Test side. Although, it probably does anyway.

 

[Mike5181]

Ryder's lost a few kgs judging by the footage from One News. Good stuff.

 

[SteveNZ]

There's a lot more to be gained out of sending Henry on an A tour than Butler; I don't think it necessary means Henry should be closer to the Test side. Although, it probably does anyway.

True enough, adding also that Butler was due on CLT20 duties with Otago. I can't see that Butler has a lot to add to the Test arena, as a guy who doesn't particularly shape it, isn't overly quick and doesn't overly offer too many runs from number 8-9 at a push. In saying that, he was more value than Andrew Ellis ever was and he almost walked onto a Test field in the XI.

I'm biased given I've thought Henry was a gun from day dot, and may even squeeze Doug out before long.

 

[Hurricane]

For Hurricane's benefit I've got a list of Fast Bowlers to Watch

In The Thick of It
Southee
Boult
Wagner

Nearly There - Just a Few More Wickets
Gillespie
Bracewell
Milne
Butler

Good Domestix but Not Really in the Frame Yet
Henry
Wheeler
McClenaghan
Bennett

Shows Promise - Make Your Name
Anderson
Small
Mathieson
Verma
Bartlett
Duffy
Neesham
Kugglejuggle

Will Never Play Again
Arnel
McKay
Mills
Aldridge

Thanks found this interesting. If ever you get bored one day I would be very interested in reading a thumbnail on each bowlers prospects

I'll contribute some one liners

In The Thick of It
Southee - he will be a NZ ATG if he stays healthy by the end of his career
Boult - he needs a stint in county cricket or just a lot more test cricket to develop the nous that Southee has. Southee is more wiley.
Wagner - never ever seen someone try so hard for their country. Every ball is an effort ball even if its his 3rd spell of the day. Probably needs to be used in 6 over spells at maximum since he gives so much effort.

Nearly There - Just a Few More Wickets
Gillespie - insert booming joke here
Bracewell - bring back the swing kid.
Milne - Iff spelt with two fs he can average 32 or 33 in test cricket then NZ will start to win tests on a regular basis. Not sure of his line and length control.
Butler - over rated by Flem. He doesn't get enough bounce or movement. But I concede he is extremely intelligent and is not phased by the international stage.

Good Domestix but Not Really in the Frame Yet
Henry - his run up has come a long way from the gentle trot he used to do to the crease but I believe it still needs more work.
Wheeler - not making any comments here as some of you are passionate about him.
McClenaghan - He seems injury prone so would prefer he just stuck at odis for the time being so we don't destroy him
Bennett - he cost us a test victory in India by breaking down. Have never forgiven him. Apparently he has improved his action which is a good thing as it used to be ridiculous.

Shows Promise - Make Your Name
Anderson - not a front line bowler and I disagree with Flem that he should try to be one. His bowling is good enough to be a 4th seamer and I have seen enough of his batting to suggest someone like Martin Crowe could sort him out inside a month.
Small - "At a Glance" | Bevan Small - YouTube make your own mind up - I hate his front arm.
Mathieson -Massive hype around this kid "At a Glance" | Andrew Mathieson - YouTube (Kippax video) I don't like how he dips his head at point of delivery. I realise Jimmy doesn't look up either but it generally is not recommended.
Verma - meh
Bartlett ?
Duffy need to see more of him. He is young.
Neesham
Kugglejuggle

Will Never Play Again
Arnel - I am mystified as to why he isn't a legend in list a cricket.
McKay - horrifyingly quick at Pearce cup level while I watched him vs a hapless Wainui
Mills
Aldridge

 

[Flem274*]

Sorry Hurricane but you've just induced a rant.

I hate this "ATG by NZ standards" and "If he averages 30 that will be good" talk. No it ****ing isn't ffs. If Milne averages 30 with the ball I will throw things because that bloke can be numero uno and is in the top three bowlers we've produced since and including Hadlee on raw potential; fourth at worst if you rate a young Cairns higher. He swings it both ways at 145+ and you will be happy if he averages 30?

Good by New Zealand standards isn't good enough. It never was and never will be. We have a long history of disappointment, and while the first forty years could be put down to not playing enough test cricket (we have 18 players with 50 tests or more, and most of them are modern. Sinclair has played as many tests as some of our greats), once we started getting competitive and got more games someone somewhere decided competitive was good enough because it was great by New Zealand standards. The population and second to rugby excuses often get trotted out, but the simple fact is I looked up the playing numbers and they aren't far behind rugby, not that being second to football or league or whatever ever stopped other countries, and the West Indies absolutely steamrolled the rest of the world with a grand total of five million people.

What holds New Zealand cricket back is a culture of mediocrity which manifests in many ways. A young player will do something good as a teenager and get cherry picked by half trained but well meaning coaches and selectors for all kinds of specialist work. Only this player and a select few others ever get access to this, but often it's a blessing in disguise if you're a bowler on the outer because going to the academy = career ending injuries. The players get told they're wonderful by coaches, fans and media and they graduate to FC cricket and maybe have some success before getting thrown into international cricket because "holy **** we need new blood the current team suck" and they fail for a few years before either being consigned to the scrap heap or pushing through to varying degrees of success. The entire way they will trot out typical New Zealand male meathead "I don't need to change my technique hurr durr" or "that's the way I play" lines which will be either echoed by the powers that be or cause the player to be blacklisted.

There are so many more ways this culture shines through. In the John Wright coaching era if I was given a dollar for each time I heard some variation of "If we play our very very bestest cricket, then hopefully we will compete with the mighty mid-table test side and scrap a win" then I would be a rich man. Richard Hadlee once told Shane Bond to stop being so forceful because New Zealander's don't speak like that after Bond sad something up for it and scrappy at a presser (see his book for deets). Then there was that snippet about a young player being mocked for practising too hard. Holy ****! And everyone accepts this. Young bowlers were getting injured left right and centre since Hadlee retired until we waved the white flag and shut the academy down, which is all but admitting no coaching is better than being coached by NZC, and batsmen have been repeating the same ****ing mistakes for donkey's years, and young players are being tried because "hey, he's talented!" and no one says anything. We just happily sit here and talk about how in ten years everything will be wonderful and great and we'll have our new Hadlee and Crowe for nine other plucky untalented players to build around and hero worship at the same time.

The facts are we suck. Apart from a few select teams for the most part we have always sucked, and the problems have never been no one can bowl faster than 130kph or see the ball: it has all been to do with the application of ability, or rather the lack of it, and then the excuses for failure. "By New Zealand standards" is a swearword, 30 is never a good enough number whether you're a batsman or a bowler and saying someone trains too hard is always a droppable offense. No exceptions.

I have an exam in the morning. I'm going to bed.

EDIT: If you put mediocrity as your pinnacle, chuck it in and go home. Then we could fund a sport that actually wants to try instead.

 

[Immenso]

Pleased to see M Bracewell start with a ton. I'm a bit of a fan of his. If he can get past the 'throwing away his starts' phase he might be quite good. His FC average is mid 30s, and that's a very accurate reflection of him so often scoring between 20 to 40 ( and I don't mean that as a compliment).

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

Phlegm's getting more and more feisty. His pony must have bitten him on the arse or something.

Good to see Pollard rack up a ton, even if the Otago attack isn't their best and the pitch is docile, the fact he compiled one hopefully shows he's been working on his temperament. Might have to watch the highlights reel later, but as it's a batsman I probably cbf.

 

[Bahnz]

Heh, you're funny.

I get that Milne is exciting, but to make blanket statements like "he's one of the 3 most talented bowlers" produced in 80 years of international cricket on the basis of a few minutes of low-res Kippax footage and a couple of 150k long-hops from 3 years ago is a bit ott. Let's wait until we've actually had the chance to watch him bowl in a couple of games before making grand claims about his position in the history of the sport.

I do think the position of the sport in our culture is a contributing factor to our lack of sustained success. Cricket in this country is by and large a sport of the white middle-classes, and even there it's only the 2nd or 3rd sport of choice behind rugby and soccer. The West Indies isn't a fair comparison because while they are of a similar size to us, cricket was, and still is a sport of far greater cultural significance to them than it is for us.

I don't think New Zealand is ever going to be better than mid-table. Even in the Hadlee golden age we were realistically only ever a distant third - and that was in a pre-SL and banned-SA cricketing world (note: I don't care if ICC's bull**** rankings had us ranked number 2 a couple of times - Imran's Pakistan were definitely a better allround side than Hadlee's NZ).

We lack the resources and know-how of England and Australia, the sheer numbers of the sub-continental sides, or the genuine enthusiasm for the sport evident in SA and WI. We're also disadvantaged by the fact that, at the junior level at least, local conditions encourage the development of cricketers who aren't likely to make a big splash at the international level (medium pace line and lengthers, batsmen with zero backfoot technique, and spinners who are only there to wheel down a few overs of pies before declarations are made).

None of this is to say that there isn't a culture of mediocrity in NZ cricket, or that the national side isn't under-achieving. In retrospect, we've been the worst team in the world ever since the last vestiges of Fleming's side left in 07/08. That's poor, and we should be doing better. But I think to lay the blame entirely at the door of low standards is a bit simplistic. It's just as important to recognise that the sport in New Zealand faces a combination of serious obstacles that aren't present in other countries (with the possible exception of Sri Lanka).

Anyway, good to see Jesse playing a mature and determined innings, even if he probably would've probably scored 3x as many runs if he'd been in cbf mode.

Edit: just noticed you said post Hadlee. I still don't think we know enough about him to make a statement like that, but that's much less of a stretch than suggesting he's one of the top 3 at nz bowlers in terms of ability. Btw, who are your top 3 post Hadlee bowlers in terms of ability?