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*Official* English Football Season 2013-14
- Thread starter GIMH
- Start date
wpdavid
Hall of Fame Member
That figures, based on what I've seen of my 11-year old son's little league and school matches over the last couple of years. Lots of well meaning people giving up their time, but the boys don't get to develop their skills unless they're good enough to sign up for one of the top clubs' academies. Instead, there's a premium on size, athleticism and who can kick it hardest. And culturally, it's a million miles away from what I'd expect to see in other more enlightened countries. But you probably know that. btw - any thoughts on why Scotland doesn't produce the players it did until the mid-1980s or so?
In reply to other comments, as I still haven't worked out how to multi-quote....
The rules I referred to in the early 1990's were the ones to do with a minimum number of that country's nationals in Champions' League matches, which Furball mentioned in relation to Man Utd circa 1993. I think Rangers may have benefited from them against a German side around then too.
And to clarify, I'm not arguing against any presence at all of overseas players in the EPL. Totally agree that the better ones raise standards and make the game more watchable. I wouldn't want to lose the cream of the crop any more than I'd have wanted to miss out on Best, Law, Dalglish, Brady and others in my younger years. Only the extent that we're seeing nowadays viz the lowest number of English players ever, if we're to believe what we were told a couple of weeks ago. Which results in dullards like Walker and Milner appearing in most of our international matches, and someone like Barclay getting a run-out when he appears to control a ball further than I can actually kick the thing, simply because there aren't enough alternatives.
I know I'm in a minority here, and it worries me to be sounding like a little Englishman about it, but I'll take solace in taking company with Franz and Johann for the time being.
BoyBrumby
Englishman
I think we all welcome the Ozils and the van Persies to our game as they're world class performers who improve the overall quality of the product and, frankly, we don't have any home-reared cattle of a similar ilk.
It gets cloudier when one looks at the levels below world class; here there is a real argument to be made that cheaper foreign imports do block English players. Look at Richard (sic) Lambert; he's only three games in to his second ever top flight season at the age of thirty one and looks, at worst, a serviceable performer.
Certainly better than hacks like (with an Arsenal hat on) Wreh, Boa Morte and Aliadiere, who all got cracks (and in Boa Morte's and Aliadiere's cases with more than one club too) despite being faintly shyte. Presumably mainly 'cos they were cheap.
It gets cloudier when one looks at the levels below world class; here there is a real argument to be made that cheaper foreign imports do block English players. Look at Richard (sic) Lambert; he's only three games in to his second ever top flight season at the age of thirty one and looks, at worst, a serviceable performer.
Certainly better than hacks like (with an Arsenal hat on) Wreh, Boa Morte and Aliadiere, who all got cracks (and in Boa Morte's and Aliadiere's cases with more than one club too) despite being faintly shyte. Presumably mainly 'cos they were cheap.
Furball
Evil Scotsman
Twas Leeds who benefitted. They lost 3-0 to VfB Stuttgart in the 1st round 1st leg, and beat them 4-1 at Elland Road, going out on away goals. Stuttgart had named 4 foreigners in their side, so UEFA awarded Leeds the game 3-0, and ordered a playoff to be played in Barcelona. Leeds won, setting up a 2nd round tie with Rangers.
As for why Scotland doesn't produce good players - all the same reasons as England without England's exposure to top class foreign players and coaches.
wpdavid
Hall of Fame Member
Thank you - so it was. Then lost to Rangers in the next round maybe?
Yeah, but your supply line seemed to dry up a while back after producing a string of very good players in the 1960's & 1970's. Unless it's simply down to the increasing standards of living allowing them to partake in the factors Brumby listed.
Going back to my earlier thoughts about England, the thing that held us back in the early 1990s was being kicked out of Europe post-Heysel, leading to the sort of team we saw under Taylor in the early 1990's. Admittedly the manager's philosophy had something to do witht hat as well. When I previously said that we had better players in the 1990's, I meant the group that emerged from about 1995, who we'd all settle for now, I think. Going back a decade, even allowing for anomalies like Fenwick appearing in our central defence at the 1986 WC I reckon that Robson had a decent cohort at his disposal. Obviously those who played in 1986 & 1990 had originally developed pre-Heysel when we weren't so oblivious to the European game.
Furball
Evil Scotsman
This is the thing that really pisses me off about Scottish football - it was always the English who developed physical, "if it moves, kick it" players while we developed the small, skillful players.
At some point in the last 50 years we've lost our previous identity as a footballing nation and developed this new, **** one.
I blame the Souness Revolution of the mid 80s. Great for Rangers in the short to medium term but it's utterly destroyed Scottish football.
Furball
Evil Scotsman
Mainly an Edinburgh problem, so it affects our rugby side more than the football side.
Uppercut
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Yeah I completely agree, it's shocking. It might be to do with how Scotland sometimes defines itself in opposition to England, so when English football grew more technical and middle-class it moved in the opposite direction. Or it might be that no one wants to lose the epic brutality of Old Firm games and it trickles down from there. Who knows, but it's a shame. Scotland were the original passing team and now they resemble England circa 1870.
Yeah, I have always been dead against the 'whole foreign players are ruining English football thing' and still think that it is largely tosh but there does come a point when it is going to make a difference, even from a simple numerical perspective, and that is maybe something we are seeing with goalkeeping and strikers position at the moment.
Totally agree with Grecian about English players going abroad though, would do them so much good and it real shame that more don't do it.
One thing I would say is that it is improving lower league football, we have a couple of very good youngsters that come on a permanent basis from Everton. Sure they will never be world beaters, but Forshaw in particular is a genuinely talented footballer who I don't think would have dropped down to our level a few years ago. The flip side of course is young players provided by smaller clubs tend to get snapped up by the big ones more quickly.
Ikki
Hall of Fame Member
It matters and it matters a lot that foreign players make up so much of the total pool of players now. Sure, players have to deserve to play at a certain level and if foreigners are at that level then they'll get there ahead. However, what it means for English players is that they do not get the requisite experience to improve and play at higher levels. The foreigners get that in their leagues and then move to England where they're more of a finished product...where are the English players going to get that, with respect to topflight football?
You have to be some kind of prodigy these days to make it as a teenager, show your promise right away, and then hold onto a squad place. If you're a youngster, especially at the top level/top clubs, if you don't show your promise by 22-23 you'll get sold to lower league levels and who knows if you'll ever find your way back again. Even now, even if you are promising you may just be loaned out for a few years instead of getting time and experience to grind it out at the top level.
This means less quality being used or improved at the top level, to get into our top clubs, to compete in the top competitions to then compete with the foreigners from all the other countries that are getting that experience and education.
You have to be some kind of prodigy these days to make it as a teenager, show your promise right away, and then hold onto a squad place. If you're a youngster, especially at the top level/top clubs, if you don't show your promise by 22-23 you'll get sold to lower league levels and who knows if you'll ever find your way back again. Even now, even if you are promising you may just be loaned out for a few years instead of getting time and experience to grind it out at the top level.
This means less quality being used or improved at the top level, to get into our top clubs, to compete in the top competitions to then compete with the foreigners from all the other countries that are getting that experience and education.
Uppercut
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But they would never have even had the chance to play at a level that high before. Foreigners have added a whole new level at the top of the sport, where the very best English players get the chance to play with some of the best in the world. It's an opportunity that was available to no one pre-1990, rather than one which was available to everyone.
The whole argument is based on that one simple piece of incorrect logic.
The whole argument is based on that one simple piece of incorrect logic.
Ikki
Hall of Fame Member
The English first division prior to the European ban on English clubs was certainly amongst the highest level of football at the time, if not the highest - similar to the stature it has today in European football. For a good decade The European cup regularly featured an English winner or at least finalist.
It might make it easier to spot the great English players because so few of them are at top positions in their top clubs; but I'd say back then you had a far better range of players to pick from. It's either an amazing generational player (i.e. Gerrard or Scholes) or someone playing at a relegation battling club now.
Certainly, English football in general has to change its youth models and innovate; but I hate how people just dismiss the foreigner talk as some strictly xenophobic premise.
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flibbertyjibber
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Just have to write this one off and move on to next week. Not easy being down to ten men so early though.
GIMH
Norwood's on Fire
Piss off ****.
GIMH
Norwood's on Fire
I won't be there but we're hardly firing on all cylinders ATM. 0-0 ill bet.