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New Zealand A Tour of India and Sri Lanka

JontyPanesar

U19 Vice-Captain
No Vinays refers to bowlers who have gamed Ranji but have little to offer at the international level

And I'd rather not wreck the set of talented openers India has to fill in the second opening slot if Vijay fails. Slotting in a middle order batsman as a long term opener is rarely sustainable on overseas tours.
 
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Kippax

Cricketer Of The Year
Run-hungry Zol keeps up the good habit | Latest Cricket News & Breaking News | Wisden India

Zol’s innings of 110 off 153 balls against New Zealand A symbolised fluency against an attack comprising international bowlers such as Doug Bracewell and Mark Gillespie. What stood out was his back-foot play, not traditionally a strength of Indian batsmen.

“When you have two Test bowlers bowling at you, the margin of error is minimum,” said Zol, visibly tired after a 232-minute vigil. “No one from the team made me feel that I was making my debut and this hundred means a lot to me. There was a bit of nervousness, but I took it in a positive way since I knew the opportunity was there for me to make a mark.

“You won’t get easy runs and you will have to be patient. Initially I took my time as I wanted to bat long. I had a chat with the coach Sanjay Bangar and he asked me to bat sessions and not worry too much about the runs”
Jimmy Neesham ‏@JimmyNeesh 14h
@PlunketPromise @ish_sodhi that went well! Haha
 

Arjun

Cricketer Of The Year
Zol's career has just begun at the domestic level. Let's not make an India player out of someone so new.

Can you name better bowlers in India than Pankaj Singh? Only Zaheer. Nobody else. Much of the concerns mentioned here apply for every other bowler who does well in Ranji Trophy. On the contrary, all of Ishant, Umesh, Aaron, Tyagi, Mithun, Dinda and Unadkat (and more) were picked outside the system, and except for Umesh in Tests and Ishant in ODIs, none of them are at this moment good enough- or even any good. You have to go back to experience, and pick Pankaj over everyone else, bar Zaheer. That also includes Bucky, who lacks the goods to lead the pace attack, and may snap sooner than Irfan Pathan.
 

JontyPanesar

U19 Vice-Captain
Zol's career has just begun at the domestic level. Let's not make an India player out of someone so new.

Can you name better bowlers in India than Pankaj Singh? Only Zaheer. Nobody else. Much of the concerns mentioned here apply for every other bowler who does well in Ranji Trophy. On the contrary, all of Ishant, Umesh, Aaron, Tyagi, Mithun, Dinda and Unadkat (and more) were picked outside the system, and except for Umesh in Tests and Ishant in ODIs, none of them are at this moment good enough- or even any good. You have to go back to experience, and pick Pankaj over everyone else, bar Zaheer. That also includes Bucky, who lacks the goods to lead the pace attack, and may snap sooner than Irfan Pathan.
So I'll first say that I agree that domestic bowling stars deserve the chance to prove themselves on a higher level, regardless of how mediocre they might look (India A preferably, though also ODIs). The best way to develop better test cricketers in India is to create the incentives in place to encourage cricketers to do well in domestic FC competitions. That goes for bowling, batting, for India, Australia, England, etc. When you try to bypass the process to fast-track players who have hardly made a mark in domestic FC, you devalue your domestic FC competition. I think the lack of depth in Australia's batting can be attributed in some small part to this attitude.
Pankaj Singh definitely deserved a run in this series; he has only had two actual India A matches against non-scrub sides, and only one of them did he actually get to bowl (0/53, 2/16) v. South Africa A at the Kotla a long time ago. And you're right that India isn't deep enough for selectors to completely block him out of selection. But I think if you actually watch him bowl, there's not a ton of promise. He's not quick. He doesn't really swing the ball much. He seems pretty clever and is more or less line&length. That could work at the test level, but it's not likely. Otherwise, where's Joginder Sharma in the test mix? His domestic numbers are unreal.

I don't know why you discount Umesh; his pace and fuller length is the most promising thing India have seen in a long time...and he's played 2 seasons of Ranji and just cut his teeth in test cricket.
But anyhow, other bowlers in India who are better aside from Zaheer:
1. Ishwar Pandey has been awesome in Ranji in his 2.5 seasons of play. I've seen a decent bit of footage of him bowling for MD; he's bowls at a pretty quick pace, uses his height to good advantage, and is pretty accurate. Obviously he couldn't play on this India A series b/c he was on the tour to play SA A, but I really hope he keeps tearing it up in Ranji so that he gets into the SA touring party.
2. Praveen Kumar is a better bowler; he has a better domestic record and has proven himself in a much wider variety of conditions (some pretty good pitches in WI and England). When it's not swinging, he's still very tidy. Remember that at one point was ranked the best ODI bowler in the world pre-2011 injury; not saying the rankings are the all and end all, but he's skillful AND economical. People say anger is his problem, but I worry more about him staying fit.
3. Bucky? Is that Bhuvi's nickname? As long as Bhuvi is economical when the ball isn't doing anything, he's still better than Pankaj Singh imho. He wasn't that economical v. Australia, though he didn't really bowl much in the Aus series either given the pitches. He's a useful batsman and a better fielder than most Indian bowlers, including Pankaj Singh, who can be a bit of a donkey.
 

Arjun

Cricketer Of The Year
Pankaj Singh definitely deserved a run in this series; he has only had two actual India A matches against non-scrub sides, and only one of them did he actually get to bowl (0/53, 2/16) v. South Africa A at the Kotla a long time ago. And you're right that India isn't deep enough for selectors to completely block him out of selection. But I think if you actually watch him bowl, there's not a ton of promise. He's not quick. He doesn't really swing the ball much. He seems pretty clever and is more or less line&length. That could work at the test level, but it's not likely. Otherwise, where's Joginder Sharma in the test mix? His domestic numbers are unreal.
I feel Dhawan and Mishra are perfect examples of players picked after years of experience in the system, which is why both are doing well- at least Mishra in the limited sample space. Joginder, on the other hand, is past it now, and the last few seasons (plagued by injury) were poor- you can't pick him on his 2004-05 heroics alone. There are so many better options than him, such as Bhuvneshwar Kumar, and even then, Irfan Pathan. Even Ravindra Jadeja was picked for Tests midway through one single, solitary, good season, and he's done well so far. That's not even counting blokes like Nayar, LR Shukla, Rajat Bhatia, who have played in the top tier, unlike Joginder.

We know Pankaj Singh is not quick. Nobody who plays that much cricket is quick anyway. He's not slow either, and his pace has gone up a lot more. With his height, he can get more bounce and carry, and use the short ball well. He's not someone who's very good at leading the pace attack, and needs some aggressive or crafty (or a mix of both) partner at the other end. When the team management gets it right, he's the man to throw the ball to.
I don't know why you discount Umesh; his pace and fuller length is the most promising thing India have seen in a long time...and he's played 2 seasons of Ranji and just cut his teeth in test cricket.
Actually, I don't discount Umesh, but his frequent injuries and lack of consistency may make him unsustainable over a long period. Already he's been dropped from the final of the last ODI series the team played, for, guess who, Vinay Kumar! He's now slated to be dropped from the ODI side to make way for ODI-ready but mediocre seam-up bowlers.
1. Ishwar Pandey has been awesome in Ranji in his 2.5 seasons of play. I've seen a decent bit of footage of him bowling for MD; he's bowls at a pretty quick pace, uses his height to good advantage, and is pretty accurate. Obviously he couldn't play on this India A series b/c he was on the tour to play SA A, but I really hope he keeps tearing it up in Ranji so that he gets into the SA touring party.
The same Ishwar Pandey was pounded by Chris Gayle, a regular international opener, on the flat Pune pitch, and then you wonder why Indian domestic regulars and youngsters are often benched or sidelined by IPL teams (which I don't approve of, at all). There's a huge difference between bowling in docile Ranji games in seamer-friendly Central/North Zone regions and on flat decks against top international batsmen. He's only two seasons old. Let him play two more.
2. Praveen Kumar is a better bowler; he has a better domestic record and has proven himself in a much wider variety of conditions (some pretty good pitches in WI and England). When it's not swinging, he's still very tidy. Remember that at one point was ranked the best ODI bowler in the world pre-2011 injury; not saying the rankings are the all and end all, but he's skillful AND economical. People say anger is his problem, but I worry more about him staying fit.
Irfan Pathan was a much better bowler, and also a more productive selection in the XI, and look at what's happened to him now. Praveen has struggled to take wickets, and can't even keep things tidy on a flat pitch. Much of my concerns about Indian seamers are related to their ineptitude on flat pitches. Add to that his poor fitness, lack of athleticism on the field and a very volatile temperament and street-brawling instinct that makes Sreesanth's antics look friendly. Let him too finish two more seasons, and perform with bat and ball. In fact, even over the same period of time beginning from Jan 2012, Irfan has done a lot better- 19 wickets in 12 games against Praveen's eight in seven.
3. Bucky? Is that Bhuvi's nickname? As long as Bhuvi is economical when the ball isn't doing anything, he's still better than Pankaj Singh imho. He wasn't that economical v. Australia, though he didn't really bowl much in the Aus series either given the pitches. He's a useful batsman and a better fielder than most Indian bowlers, including Pankaj Singh, who can be a bit of a donkey.
Call him Bhuvi, BK, Bucky, little man from Lagaan, I feel his success is largely exaggerated by the fact that he's played plenty of low-scoring ODIs- on flat decks where scores over 275 are the order of the day, he's of no use- unless he can score some runs. Already he was found out in his debut Test series against Australia, when conditions did not favour seam/swing bowling, even as the Aussie bowlers tried hard and gave it everything, and got better returns. Too much is being expected out of him, and other options need to be kept open. I agree, he can bat a lot, his batting record is there to see, but I don't see him as a capable specialist bowler, owing to the weaknesses I mentioned. Fast bowling is a big athlete's aspect.
 
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JontyPanesar

U19 Vice-Captain
I feel Dhawan and Mishra are perfect examples of players picked after years of experience in the system, which is why both are doing well- at least Mishra in the limited sample space. Joginder, on the other hand, is past it now, and the last few seasons (plagued by injury) were poor- you can't pick him on his 2004-05 heroics alone. There are so many better options than him, such as Bhuvneshwar Kumar, and even then, Irfan Pathan. Even Ravindra Jadeja was picked for Tests midway through one single, solitary, good season, and he's done well so far. That's not even counting blokes like Nayar, LR Shukla, Rajat Bhatia, who have played in the top tier, unlike Joginder.
I brought up Joginder not because I think Joginder should be taken seriously...(the opposite). The bigger point is that Joginder was never anything special or test quality, despite what the Ranji numbers ever suggested.

The same Ishwar Pandey was pounded by Chris Gayle, a regular international opener, on the flat Pune pitch, and then you wonder why Indian domestic regulars and youngsters are often benched or sidelined by IPL teams (which I don't approve of, at all). There's a huge difference between bowling in docile Ranji games in seamer-friendly Central/North Zone regions and on flat decks against top international batsmen. He's only two seasons old. Let him play two more.
You're not seriously using IPL as a reason to knock a bowler's potential in the longer formats of the game, are you? He just did outstandingly well on a flat pitch v. South Africa A. Or how about his ability to keep things tidy in the Irani Trophy? And I've seen him bowl on some pretty flat pitches in Ranji for MD, and he's still impressive. He's definitely faster than Pankaj too.

Irfan Pathan was a much better bowler, and also a more productive selection in the XI, and look at what's happened to him now. Praveen has struggled to take wickets, and can't even keep things tidy on a flat pitch. Much of my concerns about Indian seamers are related to their ineptitude on flat pitches. Add to that his poor fitness, lack of athleticism on the field and a very volatile temperament and street-brawling instinct that makes Sreesanth's antics look friendly. Let him too finish two more seasons, and perform with bat and ball. In fact, even over the same period of time beginning from Jan 2012, Irfan has done a lot better- 19 wickets in 12 games against Praveen's eight in seven.
Praveen has struggled to take wickets? He has struggled to play first-class cricket! 3 matches in the 2012/13 season. But guess how many Irfan played...2! When judging a player for test cricket, I care a whole lot more about FC performances than what's ODIs, leave aside IPL. ODIs can provide some information but it depends on how the bowler is bowling (preferably new ball, not middle-over containment or wayward yorker attempts at the death) and the match circumstance, but rarely do I think it's fair to make a judgment on a player for FC/tests purely on limited overs. Totally different animal. How both PK and Irfan were asked to bowl in the Asia Cup is not how he's going to bowl in an FC match, and there isn't scoreboard pressure, needless to say.

If there's a valid knock against PK, it's that he doesn't have enough fc cricket under his belt atm due to poor fitness. But there are plenty of Ranji matches before the SA tour to prove that he's still worth it. And that applies equally well, if not more so, to Irfan.

As far as keeping things tidy, in Ranji he has proven that he can do so consistently. Those English pitches could play pretty flat, especially at Birmingham, but he was still India's tidiest bowler by a mile, even if you exclude those mornings at Lord's and Nottingham. He was tidier than most of the English bowlers too.

I think we largely agree on Bhuvneshwar aside from where he stands relative to Pankaj. There's a lot of ODI and T20 reputation built into how most Indian fans view his potential, which is a little disconcerting.
 

straw man

Hall of Fame Member
While the Indian spinners extracted a hint of turn, there wasn’t much in sight for the New Zealanders who struggled for any sort of rhythm on a placid pitch.
The bowlers were unable to go past the outside edge even once in the first two hours
the bowling was largely one dimensional
Well... that's a little disappointing. Though at least we have

After Zol had passed 80, a short burst from Doug Bracewell tested him.
DOUGLAS THE ENFORCER
 

Bahnz

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Devcich? The guy who averages 23 in FC cricket? The guy who hasn't even made a century in the Plunket Shield? This is just beyond a joke now.

I take it Milne is still stuck in the Northern Hemisphere too? This whole tour reaks of half-assed, "she'll be right on the night", administrative incompetence.
 
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Kippax

Cricketer Of The Year
Bradburn really wants to bat some runners in today, Anderson at 4, Devcich at 6. Never hoped a NZ side would be bowled out for <100 more tbh.

Milne is there according to the Wisden India guy.
 

hendrix

Hall of Fame Member
Milne missing out on this match really sucks.

I hate that Latham is captaining. Let him focus on his batting. Ronchi should be captain IMO.
 

Bahnz

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Carchopa continues to show off the hazards of basing your selections on a one time early season purple patch. Time for Luke Ronchi and his wonky technique to ride to the rescue again.

Edit: or maybe not.
 

Kippax

Cricketer Of The Year
@captainshanky 8m
New Zealand A 17/3 and it hasn't even been an hour into the day's play. Dhawal, Imtiaz on fire. Plenty of assistance for the seamers.
Let's work out in 144 characters what we want this Shanky to be asking Bradburn at the post-day press conference.
 

Daemon

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Honestly have never heard of this Jagadeesh bloke. Numbers don't look too flash either.
 

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