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New Zealand A Tour of India and Sri Lanka

Bahnz

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
+1 Astle

Don't know how/why Canterbury persisted with him as opener for five seasons.
Astle was first picked when he was around 18, and it usually takes the young guys 2 or 3 seasons to find their feet in domestix, so it's not unusual that they'd give him some slack in the first few years. Also, it's not exactly like New Zealand is flush with quality opening batsmen or anything.

George Worker is another young opener who's managed to hold onto a regular place despite an average in the mid 20's after more than 50 FC matches.
 

hendrix

Hall of Fame Member
Good from Astle. I dunno, 36 is a perfectly acceptable average for a bowling allrounder, IMO.

Presumably his role will be in the subcontinent where we're to play 2 spinners. If both him and Vettori are playing, we will look to play a 5 man bowling attack so long as Vettori regains his batting form. Even on dry wickets I think Hesson realises that our pace bowlers are much better than our slow bowlers, so there's no point in playing an extra spinner unless you can retain your pace bowlers. I don't think he'll play a test outside of the subcontinent.

In the event that Anderson or Neesham get their **** together, Sodhi will be preferred over Astle and we won't need to play 5 bowlers.

I think it's purely a horses for courses role. Bruce Martin - as well as he did - is unlikely to get many more opportunities with Vettori playing. In non-SC conditions it looks like Hesson wants someone to keep it tight. That will be Vettori until retirement.

So:

Subcontinent:
3 pace bowlers (e.g. Southee, Boult, Bracewell)
Vettori
Astle

OR
2 pace bowlers (e.g. Southee, Boult)
Pace bowling allrounder (Neesham or Anderson)
Vettori
Sodhi (not ready yet though)

either way gives us 3 pace bowlers and 2 spinners without sacrificing too much batting.


Non-Subcontinent
3 pace bowlers (Southee, Boult, Bracewell)
Vettori

no need for a 5 man attack outside the subcontinent.
 
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Maximas

Cricketer Of The Year
Sodhi not ready, Astle has played a little more, you would want one of them in the side in the SC though. Mind you, with Williamson bowling into Boult's footmarks there isn't much need for a spin bowling all-rounder IMO
 

hendrix

Hall of Fame Member
Well Astle's not great, but he took an absolutely crucial wicket in the win over SL. It should be noted that Patel played that game as well, so it was a 5 man bowling attack. It was necessary, I think.
 

hendrix

Hall of Fame Member
Well Astle's not great, but he took an absolutely crucial wicket in the win over SL. It should be noted that Patel played that game as well, so it was a 5 man bowling attack. It was necessary, I think. Vettori is better than Patel, but he's still not the most penetrative bowler going around.

I don't think Williamson will get as many wickets in the SC as he did against England who were content to just block him out.
 

Flem274*

123/5
KW will be able to play the same role wherever he plays because he will eventually throw a ball with your name on it. He's better than part time but lesser than a specialist, so he is a bit of a golden arm of sorts if you're willing to accept he's going to throw some pies as well in search of the magic ball. With him in the side there is no need to weaken the batting and play a spin bowling allrounder like Astle. Vettori, Martin, Astle and Sodhi should all be gunning for the same spot imo.

You win in the subcontinent with your quicks, and tbh we don't have a spinner good enough to be the exception to the rule.
 

hendrix

Hall of Fame Member
You win in the subcontinent with your quicks, and tbh we don't have a spinner good enough to be the exception to the rule.
Disagree with this tbh. We won in SL playing two spinners, 3 pace bowlers. Yes, neither of them took many wickets, but they kept things tight while our attacking weapons had a spell. We needed everyone in that attack. Even Bracewell, who bowled like **** that tour, managed to come up with a beauty to get Jayawardene.

Just because our batting is weak doesn't mean we should throw away any opportunity to win test matches. The best chance we have of doing that is to take wickets.

Relatively non-threatening spinners like Panesar have done well recently when they're part of a strong attack in the SC. We all know that he doesn't do anything on non-turners, but there's opportunity for these guys to play a role.
 

Dan

Hall of Fame Member
He could but there are big question marks over whether he is good enough as a spinner to warrant a place.
With Daniel Vettori seemingly dead, his competition is Bruce Martin, Jeets, Sodhi and Lance Dry. Hardly huge names in the spin bowling world. Given his batting, as a spin bowling all-rounder to go with 3 quicks and KW, he'd be my first preference after Vettori.

Is he good enough to warrant a place? Maybe not - but he's better than the competition IMO.
 

hendrix

Hall of Fame Member
As the long spin bowler, I'd definately take Martin, Patel, Sodhi, Nethula, and probably a few more random domestic spinners over Astle. He'll only get a game as the second spinner.
 

Maximas

Cricketer Of The Year
I honestly don't find much room for Astle given KW is in the side, he may have to do a Steve Smith and make it as primarily a batsman.
 

Kippax

Cricketer Of The Year
Saxena stops New Zealand A at 310 | Cricket Match Report | Wisden India

If the possibility of facing the turning ball had made the New Zealanders wary, that was exactly what they had to counter as the Indians loaded their side with three spinners in Jalaj Saxena, Rakesh Dhruv and Sarabjit Ladda. And New Zealand’s weakness against spin even on the good batting surface was well exposed by Saxena, who returned figures of 6 for 106.

Given that the pitch was under covers for close to 24 hours, Tom Latham’s decision to bat after a 90-minute delay to the start because of a wet outfield was seen as a brave move. The top-order failure might have suggested that it was a mistake, but Ronchi’s seventh-wicket stand of 146 with Todd Astle (63) changed things. That helped New Zealand A script a remarkable recovery after being reduced to 106 for 6 halfway through the second session.

Earlier, Saxena’s introduction into the attack led to immediate success as he picked up three wickets in his first three overs to expose the fragility of the batting order. He first had Latham (15) caught at silly point to a delivery that spun away sharply to take the leading edge. That was followed by a delivery that skidded on to take Daryl Mitchell’s outside edge, which Chand caught low at slip to send the batsman back for a duck. In Saxena’s third over, Carl Cachopa (15) was deceived in flight and CM Gautam completed the stumping. New Zealand A had slipped from 46 for 1 to 55 for 4.

James Neesham (27) briefly resisted but Derak DeBoorder (0) didn’t last long as New Zealand’s innings was disintegrating alarmingly. It was then that Ronchi strode in. The Indians had placed a lot of chirping fielders around the bat but Ronchi expressed his intentions straightaway with a number of cuts and pulls, forcing Abhishek Nayar, the India A captain, to push the fields back in the hope of getting Astle on strike. But Ronchi’s confidence only seemed to rub off on Astle, who lent valuable support.

In many ways, Ronchi’s approach was what the pitch demanded. Unafraid to hit through the line, he attacked Saxena to briefly throw him off guard. The pacers too – Aniket Choudhary and Dhawal Kulkarni – were treated with disdain as he cut and pulled in front of square and India A were suddenly on the defensive.

Ronchi, who lived a charmed life early on after being dropped twice, raced away to his century off just 95 balls, and his downfall was perhaps due to a lapse in concentration. He was adjudged lbw while trying to pull a fullish delivery from Kulkarni. The last three wickets added 58 handy runs before the innings drew to a close in the 78th over.

Astle then induced an edge off Chand’s bat in the second over as New Zealand A capped off a perfect end to the day.
Derak didn't last long because he told the troll under the bridge there was a far worthier and more technically admirable goat about to cross, called Tastle. :p

Unmukt Chand ‏@UnmuktChand9 2h
There is no better feeling then being at peace with yourself. || Trying to find that peace. It's coming.

Unmukt Chand ‏@UnmuktChand9 28 Aug
If absolute power corrupts absolutely, where does that leave God?
Quite like the way the high-flown little prince keeps tripping up on random Tastles and Andy McKays, checking himself out in shop windows and walking into lamp posts.

 
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RxGM

U19 Vice-Captain
You win in the subcontinent with your quicks, and tbh we don't have a spinner good enough to be the exception to the rule.
The exception to this is Bangladesh, where generally the pitches are so low and slow you have to play multiple spinners, in many ways it is an audition between Sodhi/Astle for the 2nd spin bowling spot on that tour unless they both are not good enough for it than Jeets gets it.
 

Kippax

Cricketer Of The Year
The exception to this is Bangladesh, where generally the pitches are so low and slow you have to play multiple spinners, in many ways it is an audition between Sodhi/Astle for the 2nd spin bowling spot on that tour unless they both are not good enough for it than Jeets gets it.
Sodhi in Bangladesh would break Hesson's 'one must bat' proviso I'd say.

More towards the heartfelt end of the young cricketer spectrum as well, Sodhi. FC fifties looked gritty and considerate, but were dripping in an unassertive beta maleness McCullum won't especially care for.
 

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
With Daniel Vettori seemingly dead, his competition is Bruce Martin, Jeets, Sodhi and Lance Dry. Hardly huge names in the spin bowling world. Given his batting, as a spin bowling all-rounder to go with 3 quicks and KW, he'd be my first preference after Vettori.

Is he good enough to warrant a place? Maybe not - but he's better than the competition IMO.
Lost my **** at Lance Dry :laugh:
 

straw man

Hall of Fame Member
Good from Astle. I dunno, 36 is a perfectly acceptable average for a bowling allrounder, IMO.

Presumably his role will be in the subcontinent where we're to play 2 spinners. If both him and Vettori are playing, we will look to play a 5 man bowling attack so long as Vettori regains his batting form. Even on dry wickets I think Hesson realises that our pace bowlers are much better than our slow bowlers, so there's no point in playing an extra spinner unless you can retain your pace bowlers. I don't think he'll play a test outside of the subcontinent.

In the event that Anderson or Neesham get their **** together, Sodhi will be preferred over Astle and we won't need to play 5 bowlers.

I think it's purely a horses for courses role. Bruce Martin - as well as he did - is unlikely to get many more opportunities with Vettori playing. In non-SC conditions it looks like Hesson wants someone to keep it tight. That will be Vettori until retirement.

So:

Subcontinent:
3 pace bowlers (e.g. Southee, Boult, Bracewell)
Vettori
Astle

OR
2 pace bowlers (e.g. Southee, Boult)
Pace bowling allrounder (Neesham or Anderson)
Vettori
Sodhi (not ready yet though)

either way gives us 3 pace bowlers and 2 spinners without sacrificing too much batting.


Non-Subcontinent
3 pace bowlers (Southee, Boult, Bracewell)
Vettori

no need for a 5 man attack outside the subcontinent.
Largely agree on what you've written here on roles, structure of attack and difference between SC and non-SC. With the exceptions that:

- Think you're being optimistic on Vettori's availability. I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't play another test. Certainly think it's now or never for the upcoming Bangladesh tour. If Vettori is unavailable then Bettori is a like-for-like bowler but his lack of batting makes the first five-man attack you named unusable.

- It's going to be embarrassing when we play two specialist spinners in the SC and Williamson consistently outchucks both of them. I stand by my earlier comment that I think there's about an 80% chance Williamson will be our best spinner for the next five years (unless he gets called). I can see his awkward skiddy low-bouncing you-miss-I-hit deliveries being quite effective in Bangladesh. A little Hafeez-like and then there's the fact he actually turns the ball sometimes. Whereas nearly all our other spinners are taller and rely on flight and not a lot of spin - they may not benefit tremendously from Bangladesh pitches.

The above two comments leave me personally quite unsure on who should make up our bowling attack in Bangladesh.
 

Kippax

Cricketer Of The Year
.
Shashank Kishore ‏@captainshanky 3m
Jiwanjyot did all the hard work before being caught at slip playing a flashy drive in the last over before lunch. Zol has looked fluent.
@PlunketPromise
@ish_sodhi @jimmyneesh Good luck guys. Cramp that Vijay Zol btw, make him feel shut down in covers at all costs - Zol's bad KPIs in vault - YouTube

Jimmy Neesham ‏@JimmyNeesh 27 Aug
@PlunketPromise @ish_sodhi cheers mate. Will do

Ish Sodhi ‏@ish_sodhi Protected account 27 Aug
@PlunketPromise @jimmyneesh cheers man! will do our best
 

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