ATG XI- Open Voting

[NUFAN]

None of them have been selected at all, surprise surprise so some are giving so much credit to a cricketer who's 7or8th highest score in Test Cricket is equal to mine.

Does Sobers make anyones WI all time ODI side? Is Stuart Law one of the best test Cricketers from Australia in the past 20 years? Is Pujara currently in your all time Indian team? Or is Israel Folau the best Wallaby winger of all time?

No, no, no, no.

 

[kyear2]

Only 26 selections thus far, a look at some surprising interim results.

Most total Votes thus far.

Don Bradman- 130
Garry Sobers- 130
Malcolm Marshall- 130

Jack Hobbs- 124
Adam Gilchrist- 118

Shane Warne- 106
Len Hutton- 104
Viv Richards- 102

Imran Khan- 91
Richard Hadlee- 83
Sachin Tendulkar- 71
Glenn McGrath- 71
Brian Lara- 70
Muttiah Muralitharan- 69

Sunil Gavaskar- 50
Alan Knott- 50
Wally Hammond- 49
Curtly Ambrose- 47
Dennis Lillee- 43
Barry Richards- 43
Graeme Pollock- 42
Herbert Sutcliffe- 41
Greg Chappell- 41
Jacques Kallis- 35
George Headley- 34
Syd Barnes- 30
Bill O'Reilly- 30

Keith Miller- 23
Wasim Akram- 22
Fred Trueman- 15
Mike Procter- 13
W.G. Grace- 12
Clyde Walcott- 12
Harold Larwood- 10

Ricky Ponting- 8
Kumar Sangakkara- 8
Dale Syeyn- 6
Joel Garner- 5
Ian Botham- 5
Waqar Younis- 5

 

[Red]

None of them have been selected at all, surprise surprise so some are giving so much credit to a cricketer who's 7or8th highest score in Test Cricket is equal to mine.

Does Sobers make anyones WI all time ODI side? Is Stuart Law one of the best test Cricketers from Australia in the past 20 years? Is Pujara currently in your all time Indian team? Or is Israel Folau the best Wallaby winger of all time?

No, no, no, no.

When I select, I think tests, but largely I think best cricketers of all time. I've no doubt that B.Richards is one of the two greatest openers of all time. The more I learn about him, the more I am convinced of that. If I want a team to win matches, I want him in it.

 

[watson]

Looks like our preferences haven't changed very much since we last selected our best ATG XI. Hadlee replaces McGrath, that's all. Although one more vote for Brian Lara will push him into the team at Tendulkar's expense.

Then;
01. Sir Jack Hobbs
02. Sir Leonard Hutton
03. Sir Donald Bradman*
04. Sir I.V.A. Richards^
05. Sachin Tendulkar
06. Sir Garfield Sobers5^
07. Adam Gilchrist+
08. Imran Khan3
09. Malcolm Marshall1
10. Shane Warne4^
11. Glenn McGrath2

Now;
01. Sir Jack Hobbs
02. Sir Leonard Hutton
03. Sir Donald Bradman*
04. Sir I.V.A. Richards^
05. Sachin Tendulkar
06. Sir Garfield Sobers5^
07. Adam Gilchrist+
08. Imran Khan3
09. Richard Hadlee2
10. Malcolm Marshall1
11. Shane Warne4^

 

[Coronis]

Surely you'd have Tendulkar at 4.

 

[watson]

Surely you'd have Tendulkar at 4.

Perhaps Tendulkar should be 4, but it depends on the batting order that we voted for originally. I assumed that Kyear quoted the original batting order.

 

[kyear2]

The batting order for the original and official CW XI was voted upon after the original vote in Nufan's thread. Incidentally Viv and Sachin had the same number of votes in the last exercise, this time the victory for IVA was clearcut and as such he gets the No. 4 position for now.

 

[kyear2]

Watson, I am genuinely interested to know why Graeme Pollock over Viv and Sachin in your first XI?

 

[NUFAN]

When I select, I think tests, but largely I think best cricketers of all time. I've no doubt that B.Richards is one of the two greatest openers of all time. The more I learn about him, the more I am convinced of that. If I want a team to win matches, I want him in it.

Yeah personally I think Tests and believe everyone thinks Tests for everyone who has played a decent number of Tests its just for some reason people include first class cricket to help the cricketers who for varied reasons have only influenced a couple of Tests in their entire careers.

There are countless examples of cricketers who excelled in first class cricket but couldn't cut the mustard or at least be less good at Tests. Bevan, Hick etc and then there are players like Mark Waugh who started very well in there Test Careers and have a tremendous first class record but started to average less over the years.

There are just way to many what its and he just simply doesn't have the Test runs on the board.

 

[Pothas]

Jack Hobbs
Len Hutton
Don Bradman
Brian Lara
Viv Richards
Garry Sobers
Adam Gilchrist
Imran Khan
Malcolm Marshall
Shane Warne
Curtly Ambrose

Herbert Sutcliffe
Sunil Gavaskar
George Headley
Wally Hammond
Greg Chappell
Sachin Tendulkar
Alan Knott
Richard Hadlee
Dennis Lillee
Muttiah Muralitharan
Glenn McGrath

Wanted Miller but just went on the basis that you don't need 5 bowlers, best batsmen and best bowlers etc etc.

 

[watson]

Watson, I am genuinely interested to know why Graeme Pollock over Viv and Sachin in your first XI?

I can't help but be impressed by Jack Fingleton's essay - 'The Brilliance of Left-Handers'. In the first couple of pages Fingleton points out the similarities in batting styles between Pollock and Frank Woolley, and admits that 'Pollock was Frank Woolley all over again'. However, there was one key difference - Pollock hit the ball harder;

In his last innings in Sydney, for an MCC side, I saw Woolley hit a double century, but he never hit with more power on the off than Pollock did in his Sydney Test century. One cover-drive off O'Neill was unforgettable. It travelled, one thought, almost with the speed of light to the boundary. In this innings of 122 - and Pollock was then only 19 years of age - he hit one mighty 6 to leg, square, and with 30 yards to spare over the fence. He scorched 19 4s, most of them on the off. He interspersed boundaries with some hefty sweeps to leg yet one thought the leg side was not his strength. Benaud fished for him often in this innings, with several near nibbles, but there wasn't a chance to hand until he reached 104. His 122 was exactly half his sides total when he was dismissed and he retired to an acclaim seldom heard on a cricket field.

In the end Fingleton concludes;

He (Pollock) proved in Adelaide that he was almost as strong on the leg as on the off, and in subsequent innings against Australia in South Africa Pollock has shown that it is merely a toss-up which is the better batsman when Sobers and Pollock are both at their top. I have never tired of singing the praised of Gary Sobers. So many times to me he has been absolute batting perfection.....

One example of Pollock's 'subsequent innings against Australia' was his 209 runs at Newlands in 1967. The impressive thing about that innings was that everyone else in the batting line-up struggled (including Barlow, Goddard, and Lindsay), and the South African innings closed at only 353 despite Pollock's efforts.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63000.html

Admittedly, the strike bowler in that series was 'only' Garth McKenzie, so there could be a question mark over Pollock's ability to play genuine pace. However, there is enough evidence to suggest that Pollock was quite at home against the quick stuff. In 1976 an Invitation side toured South Africa featuring an attack consisting of Dennis Lillee, Max Walker, Gary Gilmour, and Ashley Mallett. In one of the Test matches Pollock made 124 runs in South Africa's first innings. We know that Dennis Lillee was trying, and not on a holiday, because he picked up 7 for 27 in the second innings;

The Cricketer - Cricket Archive - The Oracle

In 1983 Pollock managed an even 100 against a West Indian side spear-headed by Sylvester Clarke. And as Fred will tell you, Sylvester Clarke was exceptionally quick. Pollock was 40 years old at the time!

The Cricketer - Cricket Archive - The Oracle

As everyone knows Pollock averaged an impressive 61 runs for his 23 Tests. However, when Pollock finished his career in 1987 he had made 20,940 First Class runs, at 54.67 with 64 centuries, and despite never playing County cricket in England. Therefore, at that time he was THE greatest run scorer to ever come out of South Africa - and may still be (?)

IMO Graeme Pollock has done enough to prove his place in an ATG First Team.

 

[The Battlers Prince]

First XI

Jack Hobbs
Sunil Gavaskar
Don Bradman
Brian Lara
Graeme Pollock
Gary Sobers
Malcom Marshall
Alan Davidson
Shane Warne
Wally Grout
Joel Garner

Second XI

Barry Richards
Len Hutton
George Headley
Viv Richards
Keith Miller
Allan Border
Imran Khan
Wasim Akram
Allan Knott
Jim Laker
Curtley Ambrose

 

[kyear2]

I can't help but be impressed by Jack Fingleton's essay - 'The Brilliance of Left-Handers'. In the first couple of pages Fingleton points out the similarities in batting styles between Pollock and Frank Woolley, and admits that 'Pollock was Frank Woolley all over again'. However, there was one key difference - Pollock hit the ball harder;



In the end Fingleton concludes;



One example of Pollock's 'subsequent innings against Australia' was his 209 runs at Newlands in 1967. The impressive thing about that innings was that everyone else in the batting line-up struggled (including Barlow, Goddard, and Lindsay), and the South African innings closed at only 353 despite Pollock's efforts.

2nd Test: South Africa v Australia at Cape Town, Dec 31, 1966 - Jan 5, 1967 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo

Admittedly, the strike bowler in that series was 'only' Garth McKenzie, so there could be a question mark over Pollock's ability to play genuine pace. However, there is enough evidence to suggest that Pollock was quite at home against the quick stuff. In 1976 an Invitation side toured South Africa featuring an attack consisting of Dennis Lillee, Max Walker, Gary Gilmour, and Ashley Mallett. In one of the Test matches Pollock made 124 runs in South Africa's first innings. We know that Dennis Lillee was trying, and not on a holiday, because he picked up 7 for 27 in the second innings;

The Cricketer - Cricket Archive - The Oracle

In 1983 Pollock managed an even 100 against a West Indian side spear-headed by Sylvester Clarke. And as Fred will tell you, Sylvester Clarke was exceptionally quick. Pollock was 40 years old at the time!

The Cricketer - Cricket Archive - The Oracle

As everyone knows Pollock averaged an impressive 61 runs for his 23 Tests. However, when Pollock finished his career in 1987 he had made 20,940 First Class runs, at 54.67 with 64 centuries, and despite never playing County cricket in England. Therefore, at that time he was THE greatest run scorer to ever come out of South Africa - and may still be (?)

IMO Graeme Pollock has done enough to prove his place in an ATG First Team.

Point taken, just feel like he never really faced a great attack at test level as he somehow manged to miss all of the great Aussie and Ebglish fast bowlers. Point well made and referenced, also do like his ability to destroy an attack.

Sachin seems really to have fallen out of favor on CW, is that partially due to the over feverence of his fans and All of those Bradman threads?

 

[Pothas]

First time I have ever had Lara above him, there is just something I like more about the top 6 with him in it.

 

[watson]

Point taken, just feel like he never really faced a great attack at test level as he somehow manged to miss all of the great Aussie and Ebglish fast bowlers. Point well made and referenced, also do like his ability to destroy an attack.

Sachin seems really to have fallen out of favor on CW, is that partially due to the over feverence of his fans and All of those Bradman threads?

In my ATG middle-order, Bradman, Lara, and Sobers are pretty much non-negotiables who write themselves into the team as a matter of course. This leaves one middle-order position open which can be taken by Pollock, Viv Richards, Tendulkar, or Greg Chappell. And perhaps Headley or Hammond.

To be honest anyone of those 6 batsman would more than do the job, but all things considered, the middle-order combination of Lara-Pollock-Sobers just appears too awesome for words - it is the combination that I would selfishly want to sit down and watch.

Although Lara-Tendulkar-Sobers maybe preferenced for a test match in Mumbai, and Lara-Richards-Sobers maybe preferenced for a Test match in Antigua.

I agree that Pollock 'somehow managed to miss all of the great Aussie and English fast bowlers' - so there is an element of 'going with potential' rather than 'going with the actual'. But by the same token, when he did bat against the best bowlers there were enough centuries to keep that worry to a minimum.

 

[centurymaker]

1st XI
Gavaskar
Hobbs
Bradman
Richards
Tendulkar
Sobers
Gilchrist
Khan
Marshall
Warne
McGrath

2nd XI
Sutcliffe
Hutton
Headley
Chappell
Hammond
Kallis
Miller
Knott
Ambrose
Lillee
Murali

 

[centurymaker]

For me these guys are non-negotiable-

Bradman, Sobers, Imran, Hobbs, Viv, Tendulkar, Warne, Marshall, Gilly.

So I only had to decide between Hutton and Gavaskar, McGrath and Lillee.

 

[kyear2]

In my ATG middle-order, Bradman, Lara, and Sobers are pretty much non-negotiables who write themselves into the team as a matter of course. This leaves one middle-order position open which can be taken by Pollock, Viv Richards, Tendulkar, or Greg Chappell. And perhaps Headley or Hammond.

To be honest anyone of those 6 batsman would more than do the job, but all things considered, the middle-order combination of Lara-Pollock-Sobers just appears too awesome for words - it is the combination that I would selfishly want to sit down and watch.

Although Lara-Tendulkar-Sobers maybe preferenced for a test match in Mumbai, and Lara-Richards-Sobers maybe preferenced for a Test match in Antigua.

I agree that Pollock 'somehow managed to miss all of the great Aussie and English fast bowlers' - so there is an element of 'going with potential' rather than 'going with the actual'. But by the same token, when he did bat against the best bowlers there were enough centuries to keep that worry to a minimum.

Those nine (9) do for me form the top tier of middle order batsmen and along with Hobbs my top 10 batsmen of All Time, so no argument here. In the future we may also place Ponting into that group when we get a chance to sit and reflect on what he has really accomplished, also Walcott does get under rated a bit as a batsman and just may also belong in that group.

 

[The Battlers Prince]

For me these guys are non-negotiable-

Bradman, Sobers, Imran, Hobbs, Viv, Tendulkar, Warne, Marshall, Gilly.

So I only had to decide between Hutton and Gavaskar, McGrath and Lillee.

Bradman Sobers and Marshall were the best of what they did, probably Warne as well, the others even though they may be as brilliant would you still say they're a level below those guys?

 

[kyear2]

Bradman Sobers and Marshall were the best of what they did, probably Warne as well, the others even though they may be as brilliant would you still say they're a level below those guys?

Would add Hobbs to that list as well.

Bradman, Sobers, Marshall, Hobbs, Warne.