wellAlbidarned
International Coach
Cairns had swagger pouring out his armpits instead of sweat. Franklin was never that kinda guy, which you need as a fast bowling allrounder. You need to be a bit of a ****.
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***Official*** New Zealand in England series 2013
- Thread starter NZTailender
- Start date
wellAlbidarned
International Coach
Or blame the guys who came in needing 10 rpo and having to slog from ball one because Trott didn't fancy losing his not out. His innings was fine for the first 70 but once he was the only established bat left he should've pushed a bit harder.
straw man
Hall of Fame Member
Since I first saw McClenaghan bowl he's struck me as someone that will bowl 125km/h one day and 140km/h another - completely rhythm dependent. Obviously part of it is intentionally bowling to suit the conditions and match situation as well.
Agree with Hendrix that Guptill's test problems vs limited-overs prowess are not just in the head - he's just not set up at present to play the vicious movement that a new red ball gets. A separate question is whether like Flem says he'd benefit from throwing caution to the wind and attacking the new ball in tests. Probably wouldn't be particularly successful but with both he and Rutherford taking this approach it would be interesting. If runs flow then captains can do funny things like remove slips/gullies.
... I say all this because imo we're guaranteed to see Guptill back as test opener some time in the next 18 months.
Anyway, excellent win last night. In the final match I'd like to see our lower order batting tested e.g. Elliott, Franklin, NcCullum, Southee.
Agree with Hendrix that Guptill's test problems vs limited-overs prowess are not just in the head - he's just not set up at present to play the vicious movement that a new red ball gets. A separate question is whether like Flem says he'd benefit from throwing caution to the wind and attacking the new ball in tests. Probably wouldn't be particularly successful but with both he and Rutherford taking this approach it would be interesting. If runs flow then captains can do funny things like remove slips/gullies.
... I say all this because imo we're guaranteed to see Guptill back as test opener some time in the next 18 months.
Anyway, excellent win last night. In the final match I'd like to see our lower order batting tested e.g. Elliott, Franklin, NcCullum, Southee.
straw man
Hall of Fame Member
Jono
Virat Kohli (c)
LITERALLY no one on this forum is blaming Trott for the loss.
hendrix
Hall of Fame Member
Yeah, and I'd like to see one of the other batsmen construct a good dominant ODI innings.
I'm very harsh on Guptill, but his strength is that he knows how to go about constructing an innings, and that clearly rubbed off on Taylor last night. Taylor being the worst batsman to watch from a NZ point of view because of that internal struggle that's so visible; he knows, we know, the bowlers know that he could tear them to shreds, but he just doesn't know what he should do. And I'm not talking about the captaincy issues playing on his mind, he's been like that for years. Despite clearly being a top quality batsman, there's always this anxiety about his play.
To his credit, Hesson has anecdotally talked about addressing this with talk about getting him to take advantage of the fear the opposition does hold of him. Although "imposing yourself" can be understood the wrong way and could have catastrophic consequences...
Valer
First Class Debutant
Batted too slow, put pressure on his team. Didn't cash in at the end. Dismal player. Bopara a better shout.
Is that how you do it?
To be honest I think his SR is fine the problem is the team just doesn't trust him to finish (probably correctly mind) which means some has to go for (extra) big shots earlier than they should which really is les than ideal.
hendrix
Hall of Fame Member
Nah that knock was absolutely awful until N McCullum came in and actually told him to hit those pies Akhtar et al were dishing up.
It was a horrible innings up until then.
Last nice he actually looked like he had some gears between reverse and 5. It was nice.
Spikey
Request Your Custom Title Now!
I'm about to start blaming him simply so someone is blaming him
Well tbf that's probably best for England. If Trott bats through with the top order to the 35th then goes nuts until he gets himself out, it leaves Morgan/Buttler with 10-15 to work their magic; leaving Buttler with much more than that at the moment seems a little problematic.
KiWiNiNjA
International Coach
grecian
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
The most ridiculous part of trottsfault, he get's other players out. Cook was out before he came in. Bell was striking at 78 through a PP, he needed to get on with it himself. It's the way Morgan and Buttler play anyway. Maybe Root I suppose. Who knows.
They generally get themselves out through playing **** shots. Everyone apart from Cook, and bizarrely jimmeh had a lower s-r than Trott anyway.
Kippax
Cricketer Of The Year
McCullum trying to override Hesson's talk of giving the whole squad a game. Also preparing Franklin for a trip to the woodshed -
Valer
First Class Debutant
Yeah cause of the pressure he put on them by not being able to cash in when he gets a start.
#BringbackRavi Seriously though I think / hope for englands sake they trust him to lead a chase when hes that set but its a serious problem if he can't... That atleast should be clear...
Days of Grace
International Captain
I have stated before in this thread that NcCullum may offer more as an overall package than Vettori at this stage.
theegyptian
International Vice-Captain
There really isn't much in county cricket in terms of good OD bowlers. As I alluded to the other day County cricket is geared towards towards 4 day cricket and there is little preparation time for OD games and bowlers are often rested. Saying all of that there is no way Dernbach should have came back into the team.
There is no bowler in county cricket that I could say massively deserves to be in the England ODI squad but I thought I'd come up with a list of who should come next
Possibles-
Onions- poor domestic record and isn't a great fielder or batter but good domestic form this season.
Shahzad- Did decently with England before and has good bouncer/yorker. Hasn't played much cricket though for a couple of years.Can bat a bit and isn't a bad fielder. Would have been my choice.
Chris Wright- Has played a decent amount of domestic OD cricket and in the last couple of years has really come on. Has decent bouncer and yorker and bowls mid 80's. Batting getting worse. Didn;t do much though in his lions tour ofaus.
Chris Jordan- Good pace and action. Pretty accurate but somewhat lacks variation. Also only really had a 1/3 of a seasons regular cricket and then 5 years before of on/off injury hit cricket - may need more time to convince. IMproving batting and good athlete in the field. Has momentum on his side and is confident and definitely has the potential.
Toby Roland-Jones - Bit pedestrian(around80mph) but tall and accurate.
Harris- With the ODI team in the winter. Presumably they don't think he's great given Dernbach has surpassed him. A bit too medium paced again to not be highly skilled at swing or death bowling and although his batting is ok not really a power hitter.
Some guys for the future
J Overton- Genuine quick but unpolished at the moment. Give him time to develop.
M Coles - A consistent big wickettaker in the 40 over comp. Is expensive and looks too heavy for a fast bowler. Sent home from lions squad in disgrace. Useful powerfull hitter down the order
C Wood- Left armer and consistent at domestic level. Short on pace and hasn't looked particularly good in televised games. Can bat a little but not powerful.
R Topley - Looked to have a load of potential(6'7'' mid 80's swing) but Essex seem to be screwing him. Has been bowling in the 40 over comp defensively with the keeper up around 80mph with some slower balls.Looks scared and no longer an attacking option. Needs to be more aggresive imo.
M Wood- Good pace but inexperienced and needs more skills. Has potential as a batsman.
Willey - LEft arm but a bit erratic at present. Swings the ball and looks to attack and can hit a bit but not consistent lower order batsman.
All of these are nowhere near good enough at present and would get trashed with maybe the exception of Overton on a good day. Hopefully some of these can develop into England internationals.
And some mid pace trundlers who you might want to consider who are consistent performers in the domestic comp (but probably shouldn't)
Rushworth- high 70's mph wicketto wicket. Doesn't give much away and does move the ball. No batting or fielding
Liddle - Left arm and very consistent performer in t20/40. Good variation but again around 75mph and likely to be shown up in international cricket. No batting or fielding.
Shantry - Even slower than the other two at ~70mph but bowls tight and consistent wickettaker at worcs on slow low wickets.
In terms of allrounder options.
Stokes- Struggling a bit at the moment. Load of potential bowling wise- swings it at good pace(low80's) but way too erratic for sole 5th bowling option. Batting still struggling a bit but England trialled him at 6or 7 in performance games last winter as a hitter. Still learning his game.
Trego- Bowling innocuous and is a biffer of limited ability. Has also had recent batting success as an opener whilst for England would be batting at 7 or 8
Wright - batting has improved but his bowling is still guff and I;m not sure he can bowl that many overs physically. Couldn't be a sole 5th bowling option
Steven Crook- Good pace(mid80's) and takes wickets and decent lower order batsman who can hit a ball. Could be an option but not sure pace enough at international level especially when it's not express. Now wrong side of 30- little chance of improvement.
Samit- Probably should be still in there.
Left a few out that I either forgot or omitted because I didn't want the list to be exhaustive
In terms of the CT I'd be seriously looking at playing two spinners if one of Broad or FInn isn't fit. It wouldn't really go with their masterplan and we'd only be containing teams but Tredwell has been great in domestic OD cricket at keeping run rates low. IN each of the last 4 years his econ has been less than 5 when there has hardly been another bowler in any year with an econ of <5. He's a very decent OD bowler Tredwell and given the lack of replacement seam bowler options it may well make sense to play two spinners.
There is no bowler in county cricket that I could say massively deserves to be in the England ODI squad but I thought I'd come up with a list of who should come next
Possibles-
Onions- poor domestic record and isn't a great fielder or batter but good domestic form this season.
Shahzad- Did decently with England before and has good bouncer/yorker. Hasn't played much cricket though for a couple of years.Can bat a bit and isn't a bad fielder. Would have been my choice.
Chris Wright- Has played a decent amount of domestic OD cricket and in the last couple of years has really come on. Has decent bouncer and yorker and bowls mid 80's. Batting getting worse. Didn;t do much though in his lions tour ofaus.
Chris Jordan- Good pace and action. Pretty accurate but somewhat lacks variation. Also only really had a 1/3 of a seasons regular cricket and then 5 years before of on/off injury hit cricket - may need more time to convince. IMproving batting and good athlete in the field. Has momentum on his side and is confident and definitely has the potential.
Toby Roland-Jones - Bit pedestrian(around80mph) but tall and accurate.
Harris- With the ODI team in the winter. Presumably they don't think he's great given Dernbach has surpassed him. A bit too medium paced again to not be highly skilled at swing or death bowling and although his batting is ok not really a power hitter.
Some guys for the future
J Overton- Genuine quick but unpolished at the moment. Give him time to develop.
M Coles - A consistent big wickettaker in the 40 over comp. Is expensive and looks too heavy for a fast bowler. Sent home from lions squad in disgrace. Useful powerfull hitter down the order
C Wood- Left armer and consistent at domestic level. Short on pace and hasn't looked particularly good in televised games. Can bat a little but not powerful.
R Topley - Looked to have a load of potential(6'7'' mid 80's swing) but Essex seem to be screwing him. Has been bowling in the 40 over comp defensively with the keeper up around 80mph with some slower balls.Looks scared and no longer an attacking option. Needs to be more aggresive imo.
M Wood- Good pace but inexperienced and needs more skills. Has potential as a batsman.
Willey - LEft arm but a bit erratic at present. Swings the ball and looks to attack and can hit a bit but not consistent lower order batsman.
All of these are nowhere near good enough at present and would get trashed with maybe the exception of Overton on a good day. Hopefully some of these can develop into England internationals.
And some mid pace trundlers who you might want to consider who are consistent performers in the domestic comp (but probably shouldn't)
Rushworth- high 70's mph wicketto wicket. Doesn't give much away and does move the ball. No batting or fielding
Liddle - Left arm and very consistent performer in t20/40. Good variation but again around 75mph and likely to be shown up in international cricket. No batting or fielding.
Shantry - Even slower than the other two at ~70mph but bowls tight and consistent wickettaker at worcs on slow low wickets.
In terms of allrounder options.
Stokes- Struggling a bit at the moment. Load of potential bowling wise- swings it at good pace(low80's) but way too erratic for sole 5th bowling option. Batting still struggling a bit but England trialled him at 6or 7 in performance games last winter as a hitter. Still learning his game.
Trego- Bowling innocuous and is a biffer of limited ability. Has also had recent batting success as an opener whilst for England would be batting at 7 or 8
Wright - batting has improved but his bowling is still guff and I;m not sure he can bowl that many overs physically. Couldn't be a sole 5th bowling option
Steven Crook- Good pace(mid80's) and takes wickets and decent lower order batsman who can hit a ball. Could be an option but not sure pace enough at international level especially when it's not express. Now wrong side of 30- little chance of improvement.
Samit- Probably should be still in there.
Left a few out that I either forgot or omitted because I didn't want the list to be exhaustive
In terms of the CT I'd be seriously looking at playing two spinners if one of Broad or FInn isn't fit. It wouldn't really go with their masterplan and we'd only be containing teams but Tredwell has been great in domestic OD cricket at keeping run rates low. IN each of the last 4 years his econ has been less than 5 when there has hardly been another bowler in any year with an econ of <5. He's a very decent OD bowler Tredwell and given the lack of replacement seam bowler options it may well make sense to play two spinners.