Mike5181
International Captain
Just to compare, this the good Anderson (2008 - now):
year 2008 29.84
year 2009 33.87
year 2010 22.96
year 2011 24.85
year 2012 29.50
year 2013 25.88
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***Official*** New Zealand in England series 2013
- Thread starter NZTailender
- Start date
year 2008 29.84
year 2009 33.87
year 2010 22.96
year 2011 24.85
year 2012 29.50
year 2013 25.88
Bahnz
Hall of Fame Member
Cabinet96's point is that Anderson has stagnated a bit in the last 2 years. You can see that if you look at his record since the completion of India's tour of England in 2011. In his last 18 tests he's picked up 65 wickets at 28.55. Still a very good record, but for whatever reason, not as good as his 2010-2011 form, and certainly nothing sensational.
In the same period, Steyn has picked up 94 wickets at 21, and Philander 89 wickets at 17.
In the same period, Steyn has picked up 94 wickets at 21, and Philander 89 wickets at 17.
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He is a very good bowler over the last 3 years (since 2010), if you look through the stats of all bowlers over the same time period, he has the fifth best average (of those with 50+ wickets), behind Steyn, Ajmal, Herath and Philander, I think that is probably a fair reflection of where he sits in relation to other bowlers.
Adders
Cricketer Of The Year
All right then, that will do me........
What Teja said
But in all seriousness, I'm not (or don't think I am ) trying to talk up Anderson to something he's not. I just think people focus on his +30 average and judge him by that and not the bowler he has become.
Some players hit the test scene running or come good very quickly. Seems England players more than most take a long to time to mature or come good........Cook, Bell, Prior, Anderson, Broad etc.
Adders
Cricketer Of The Year
Yep I think that's a fair call, I can accept that.........especially as there are no Aussies in that 5
wpdavid
Hall of Fame Member
And that's the point. I think that at some stage - maybe in one of the tests against WI last summer - Anderson's average did briefly drop below 30. But it didn't stay there, even against WI, and then he was largely ineffectual against SA. Now I know that the saffers are rather good, but I don't envisage the world's best viewing that as a reason to be inneffectual unless the pitches are absolute roads. Apart from that, the period since 2011 does include about 9 tests in the subcontinent, which was never going to be easy for him. But he really should have cleaned up at home to WI, should have been more dangerous against SA and should have done better in NZ. None of this makes him a bad bowler, but it suggest that his career average isn't as misleading as some would have you believe.
I've wondered for a while now whether his career test average will end up below 30. You'd think it should be there by the end of this summer. If not, I reckon he has no chance. If it does,then there's the question of how long he can maintain that once anno domini kicks in.
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the big bambino
International Captain
Exactly. Anderson's break out years are 2010 and 2011. Lets look at his opponents in the bulk of his tests in those years: Bangers and Pakistan in Eng 2010. Aus in Aus 2010/11. SL and India in Eng 2011.
Pakistan can't bat. Especially away from home. BD: Nuff said. Wobbly would be a compliment describing SL's away form. India were about to be smoked 4 blot by Australia who were just the ruin of the side they were for the previous 2 decades.
The last 2 sides were his toughest assignments and they could both be described as easy pickings. The rabble we were for that 10/11 series...
This explains Anderson's success. Its a bit different bowling to Aussie and Indian vintages of circa 2006-2008 as opposed to the spumante of 2010 and 2011. Anderson's form has been consistent around his 2 good ones. Its not that he has improved as much as his opponents haven't. And Saker is just a big noting tit who is basically saying "whoa **** - aren't I a great coach huh"
Yeah Sakes; Yo da bomb.
flibbertyjibber
Request Your Custom Title Now!
Lets face it he has 240ish wickets since he returned to the side in NZ and he has got them at an average of under 28. If he was to carry on for a few more years and end up with 450 wickets overall and continued to take wickets at under 28 then he will average under 30. I think it will be touch and go as to whether he averages under 30 at the end of his career as as wpdavid says the natural decline will probably take him back over 30. I'd say Broad at not yet 27 has more chance of ending with an average under 30 than Anderson as he should be on an upward curve still and is allegedly coming into his prime and is starting with his average at 31 already.
Adders
Cricketer Of The Year
I disagree. Another way to look at this...........
Off the top of my head Finn, Siddle and Hilfy are bowlers that average slightly under 30.
Can anyone here make a case that any of those 3 are better bowlers than Jimmy??
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wpdavid
Hall of Fame Member
Finn's figures are based on a relatively small number of tests, many of which have been against relatively weak opposition, so that's entirely different. Siddle and Hilf - perhaps the stats simply don't lie? How have they gone against SA? Or NZ come to that.
wpdavid
Hall of Fame Member
I agree. Purely in statistical terms, he has less matches to outweigh than Anderson's time before he was good.
Mind you, I might not have said that before Sunday.
grecian
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Not really going to get into all this, but the Saffie series may well have been better for Jimmeh, if we hadn't caught like we were in strait-jackets, TBF.
marc71178
Eyes not spreadsheets
That's as maybe, but until he actually goes over to these other countries you cannot say he's proven himself in all conditions. Let's face it, by far his worst results came in the flattest conditions, so there's no guarantee he'll be a success in these other conditions.
BoyBrumby
Englishman
Quite so.
I mean, Sakes is paid to improve the performance of Anderson et al; he's a canny fella (as our Australian posters who're familiar with his Oz domestic work have averred) and one doesn't need to be Desmond Morris to see Jimmeh looks one of the more introverted characters in the dressing room.
It's not a huge leap to imagine Saker is just using a bit of the old carrot to build up his top boy, is it?
Once the Fulton experiment goes horribly wrong:
1. Vettori
2. Rutherford
3. Williamson
4. Taylor
5. Brownlie/Ryder
6. McCullum
7. Watling
8. Bracewell
9. Wagner
10. Southee
11. Boult
Hear me out for running with Flem's half-joking crazy selection.
On a pitch that does something, Fulton's a liability. Guptill's a liability, Latham's untested and makeshift, most of Raval's career runs came on roads, Baz won't do it and there's only so much you can put on BJ (out of context that would sound terrible). No matter what, there is no easy solution to who opens - so why not forget about it?
Yeah, Vettori will probably do **** in the role - but every other option is likely to. Why not chuck him there, avoid the 'which middle order batsman do we drop to not risk losing firepower' situation, and tell Kane to put his pads on from the start? Is Vettori's technique that much worse than Fulton's?
Plus the spin combination of Vettori and Williamson gives you a couple of options there, while letting the pace battery bowl sides out. Vettori + 3 feels a bit weak, Vettori + 4 results in telling Brownlie to GAGF. Neither of which is ideal.
Now I do understand why it was a joke, and I'm not necessarily advocating it, but it's worth some discussion IMO.
1. Vettori
2. Rutherford
3. Williamson
4. Taylor
5. Brownlie/Ryder
6. McCullum
7. Watling
8. Bracewell
9. Wagner
10. Southee
11. Boult
Hear me out for running with Flem's half-joking crazy selection.
On a pitch that does something, Fulton's a liability. Guptill's a liability, Latham's untested and makeshift, most of Raval's career runs came on roads, Baz won't do it and there's only so much you can put on BJ (out of context that would sound terrible). No matter what, there is no easy solution to who opens - so why not forget about it?
Yeah, Vettori will probably do **** in the role - but every other option is likely to. Why not chuck him there, avoid the 'which middle order batsman do we drop to not risk losing firepower' situation, and tell Kane to put his pads on from the start? Is Vettori's technique that much worse than Fulton's?
Plus the spin combination of Vettori and Williamson gives you a couple of options there, while letting the pace battery bowl sides out. Vettori + 3 feels a bit weak, Vettori + 4 results in telling Brownlie to GAGF. Neither of which is ideal.
Now I do understand why it was a joke, and I'm not necessarily advocating it, but it's worth some discussion IMO.
vic_orthdox
Global Moderator
Yes; for one Vettori's best scoring spot is behind the wicket on the off-side...
Shows how much attention I've paid to his batting over the years.
And that I should sleep more.
I'll quietly leave and stop being an idiot here.
FBU
International Debutant
Nov 2012
South Africa in Australia 2012-13 : Dale Steyn charges himself up for decider | Cricket News | Australia v South Africa | ESPN Cricinfo
"I don't think I am the best bowler in the world and I am not the most skilful," he said. "I am just fortunate enough to play every game for South Africa, I bowl a lot of overs for South Africa and I am able to take wickets when we need them.
Well I can't agree with him about not being the best bowler but I wonder if Steyn is thinking about Philander and his skills.
Tests played together -
77 wickets at 21.64 econ 2.88 s/r 45.0 - Steyn
89 wickets at 17.13 econ 2.79 s/r 36.8 - Philander
South Africa in Australia 2012-13 : Dale Steyn charges himself up for decider | Cricket News | Australia v South Africa | ESPN Cricinfo
"I don't think I am the best bowler in the world and I am not the most skilful," he said. "I am just fortunate enough to play every game for South Africa, I bowl a lot of overs for South Africa and I am able to take wickets when we need them.
Well I can't agree with him about not being the best bowler but I wonder if Steyn is thinking about Philander and his skills.
Tests played together -
77 wickets at 21.64 econ 2.88 s/r 45.0 - Steyn
89 wickets at 17.13 econ 2.79 s/r 36.8 - Philander