***Official*** New Zealand in England series 2013

[Bahnz]

Also noticed that KW's bowling average is now better than Vettori's.

Have calmed down a bit now, but this is still a very painful reality check. I did figure that England had enough runs to win. But I figured that they had 70 too many, not 170 too many. Ugh. We'll get blown away in the second test now, just you watch. There's no picking yourself up from a knockout like that.

My only consolation is that I got on England to win at 3:1 at the end of day 2. I'm off to go find some bitches and drugs.

 

[hendrix]

Has anyone seen much of Latham's keeping? Any thoughts? Given how many of our wickets come from catches behind, we really can't afford to go into a match without a test standard keeper.

Why is everyone against Latham keeping? Is he that poor with the gloves? I don't think I've seen him keep at all tbh.

They selected Latham for this very reason, over Ronchi, so if Watling is unfit then I don't see why Latham shouldn't play. Will also be a good introduction to the side to bat down at 7, considering it's likely in future he may play as a specialist middle order batsman.

It's not about his keeping ability, it's about the fact that I think he could be a gun batsman (preferably opener or number 3) and I don't want another promising player turned into a wicketkeeper when we already have Ronchi, Watling, McCullum and the slew of other keepers we've used over the past 2 years (van Wyk, Young, Hopkins etc etc etc ad nauseum).

We need good top order players and that's what he is right now. Why should he be a wicket keeper when we already have plenty of them and we don't have any test quality openers?

 

[the big bambino]

Eng bowled well. No doubt. But you have to wonder how a team whose bowlers ave little over and under 30 keep duncing test sides. I don't think you have to look too far for the answer. In this test for example NZ's 2nd best bat is really a wicket keeping batsman. In a normal side he'd be a valuable player at 7 giving depth to the batting. However he's not that far off being their best. In that respect NZ are a bit like Aus. Though the difference then to Clarke from Haddin is much greater.

Given that circumstance is it any wonder that such sides will subside at any time? Especially against proper test teams like England? To contrast lets take Prior. He averages 44. That would make him NZ's best, Australia's 2nd best but only Eng's 5th best assuming a fit KP. Its quite possible Root will overtake him too. So Eng can play him for what he is, a keeper/batsmen whereas Aus and NZ could have him as a batsman alone.

Neither Aus or NZ can bat. Neither can Pakistan. SL have alot of holes. The WI can't either...Basically batting is in a bad way outside SA and Eng while India's appears to be recovering. So when these awful sides come against pros like Eng and SA they get taught old school. Except they're too dumb to learn. Probably a few reasons for this with cricket's cycle being uppermost. Can't get over the fact, though, that too many batsmen see no reason to sweat for their country when they are so well rewarded for fooling punters into paying them overs for 20 overs of bling.

 

[straw man]

It's not about his keeping ability, it's about the fact that I think he could be a gun batsman (preferably opener or number 3) and I don't want another promising player turned into a wicketkeeper when we already have Ronchi, Watling, McCullum and the slew of other keepers we've used over the past 2 years (van Wyk, Young, Hopkins etc etc etc ad nauseum).

We need good top order players and that's what he is right now. Why should he be a wicket keeper when we already have plenty of them and we don't have any test quality openers?

Fair point but it would only be one game while Watling is injured. Then Watling comes back for the next series.

I have my doubts about Latham as a top-order batsman though.

 

[Adders]

This is more a question rather than an opinion/criticism, but was it a mistake by Cook to bowl Jimmy and Broad for 22 overs straight??

I understand the game was there for the taking and they were both bowling brilliantly and tbf the next wicket never looked far away. But the start of a ridiculous long summer.......how would a bowler pull up from a spell like that?

I bet Swann was a bit pissed, probably the best wicket he's likely to see all summer and he didn't get a chance on it.

All this talk that gets bantered around these days of controlling work loads.......wasn't any of that going on yesterday. Is 11 overs straight to much or was it the right move while going for the kill??

 

[Mike5181]

This is more a question rather than an opinion/criticism, but was it a mistake by Cook to bowl Jimmy and Broad for 22 overs straight??

I understand the game was there for the taking and they were both bowling brilliantly and tbf the next wicket never looked far away. But the start of a ridiculous long summer.......how would a bowler pull up from a spell like that?

I bet Swann was a bit pissed, probably the best wicket he's likely to see all summer and he didn't get a chance on it.

All this talk that gets bantered around these days of controlling work loads.......wasn't any of that going on yesterday. Is 11 overs straight to much or was it the right move while going for the kill??

Well they had a lunch break after 5 or 6 overs each, so it wasn't that bad. Maybe an over or two too much.

 

[KiWiNiNjA]

So thankfully they didn't tease us this time. Meant I got a good nights sleep.

Silver linings.

 

[hendrix]

nah it was a 4 day test match and the over rates weren't setting the world on fire either.

It was ruthless captaincy and that's what England need to show.

 

[the big bambino]

Try getting the ball off either of them.

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

Meh iPhone

Have another go

Yep that's me 7 weeks in Europe starting with day. 4 at lords

Who am I speaking to?

I manage Navman Cheesecake - I think you're in the same Youth division as me.

 

[Flem274*]

Wouldn't drop Fulton. England and South Africa are the two worst places in the world for him to bat. Australia a close third. New Zealand would be up there too but our pitches are flattening out more and more each year.

I have some hope he can still contribute everywhere else, but I didn't and obviously still don't expect anything out of him for this tour.

Guptill is also terrible. Hard working and pretty to watch on attack, but he isn't a test opener atm.

Latham has been given his squad call up two years too early imo, but with the dearth of batsmen in the Plunket Shield someone was going to get an early call up. Vettori, Ryder, Broom, van Wyk, Ronchi are the only realistic names I can think of who combine experience with domestic quality and Ryder is the only one who poses a serious challenge to any of the top six atm. Ronchi of course is breathing down Watling's neck but Watling has quietly gone about being the MVP of the batsmen in the last 6 months.

This is the best side available. All of these batsmen at various times have shown they can score runs against good attacks. They just can't do it consistently and are very good at having a group panic.

We also have to remember Broad and Anderson would have destroyed almost any test side in the world with their bowling yesterday. Only South Africa and a few lone rangers from other sides like Clarke and Chanderpaul could have stood up to that bowling. Very few of the batsmen threw it away or fell to atrocious technique, Fulton aside. KW did well to look like he belonged before throwing it away, but despite having one of the worst looking dismissals he went about his innings the best of them imo. Left the ball well and looked to knock it around and put the bad ball away. He just ****ed up that drive.

 

[Kippax]

Has anyone seen much of Latham's keeping? Any thoughts? Given how many of our wickets come from catches behind, we really can't afford to go into a match without a test standard keeper.

Very sporty (i.e. he uses top percentile reflexes to save a lot of guileless reads in the nick of time, I guess an expert might say). Some very tidy low catches in the vault.

Hamish Bennett, 1/24 vs. ND - YouTube

 

[straw man]

Eng bowled well. No doubt. But you have to wonder how a team whose bowlers ave little over and under 30 keep duncing test sides. I don't think you have to look too far for the answer. In this test for example NZ's 2nd best bat is really a wicket keeping batsman. In a normal side he'd be a valuable player at 7 giving depth to the batting. However he's not that far off being their best. In that respect NZ are a bit like Aus. Though the difference then to Clarke from Haddin is much greater.

Neither Aus or NZ can bat. Neither can Pakistan. SL have a lot of holes. The WI can't either...Basically batting is in a bad way outside SA and Eng while India's appears to be recovering. So when these awful sides come against pros like Eng and SA they get taught old school.

This is all true - though it makes for some entertaining test series when almost every batting side in world cricket has the capacity to collapse. Most sides are very reliant on a handful of experienced, consistent top order batsmen and there seems to be a critical mass of around 4 of these (in the top 7) below which frequency of lollapses greatly increases. Particularly if you have an unreliable openers as many teams do currently (and NZ always do).

NZ are currently suffering because our number one batsman is struggling to reassert himself in the side. Williamson and McCullum just make the grade at present, while the rest are either inexperienced, unsuited to conditions or just not very good. We're destined to be hit and miss for the foreseeable future, and of course generally more competitive at home. Oh for an ugly, boring, dour opener like Graeme Smith, Katich or Richardson.

 

[straw man]

Wouldn't drop Fulton. England and South Africa and everywhere else in the world apart from perhaps New Zealand, are the worst places in the world for him to bat.

Fixed

Can you imagine Fulton against spin inside the first ten overs in India/UAE/SriLanka?

Wouldn't drop Fulton yet either - but he's living on credit and lack of other options.

 

[Flem274*]

Fixed

Can you imagine Fulton against spin inside the first ten overs in India/UAE/SriLanka?

Wouldn't drop Fulton either yet - but he's living on credit and lack of other options.

T Mac has a ton in India.

Fulton could also score runs on surfaces like the P Sara road. He wouldn't be a success everywhere obviously, but give him something flat and slowish and he will score runs.

 

[Flem274*]

btw tempted to roll out my vettori to open half joke again for kicks. it always annoys people so much.

 

[Mike5181]

Fixed

Can you imagine Fulton against spin inside the first ten overs in India/UAE/SriLanka?

Wouldn't drop Fulton yet either - but he's living on credit and lack of other options.

We have a two test series against Bangladesh in October/November. That's our next test series actually. I'd seriously be looking at Latham and his sweep shot if Fulton scores nothing in the next test.

 

[the big bambino]

If he's fit get Vettori in right away. He fights.

 

[Days of Grace]

The match could have panned out differently if we had lost at max 2 wickets in the first hour.

 

[Bahnz]

The match could have panned out differently if we had lost at max 2 wickets in the first hour.

And things could've been even worse if Joe Root had gone on to score 150. Ifs and buts...