The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[Satyanash89]

Flower was always a good keeper, he might not be in same league as Healy,Knott & Latif's but was as good as Gilchrist if not better.

Giclhrist was far better as a keeper... I think Flower was a slightly better batsman than him, but keeping wise, it's not really that close. Flower was a great batsman who kept for the sake of team balance... kind of like Dravid... he was surely better with the gloves than Dravid , but you know what I mean... he was quite untidy to be honest.

Why is Gilchrist's keeping so underrated? He was such an awesome batsman that people automatically think his keeping wasn't great? The reason he is almost a certainty in most All Time XIs is because he was a very, very good wicketkeeper in addition to his superb batting. He grabbed almost everything that came his way and kept to Warne brilliantly as well, which is very difficult to do

 

[Lillian Thomson]

Gilchrist was a genuine Test class keeper. Flower was not a keeper at all. You could put him in a best of three arm-wrestling contest with Alex Stewart to see who was worse.

 

[smash84]

B.Richards
L.Hutton
J.Kallis
S.Tendulkar
B.Lara
R.Ponting
A.Knott
D.Steyn
W.Akram
M.Murali
G.McGrath

Bradman obv is a big difference as is Gilly. Didn't want to go for FTBs so went for Knott. Bradman aside it is close. I'd say my fast bowling is arguably stronger (only slightly) and the spinners cancel each other out. The batting is where you have an edge. Leave Bradman aside, it's very close there too although obviously Gilly is far superior to Knott as a batsman (inferior keeper though, relatively speaking).

My batting is stronger even without Bradman. It bats down pretty much to number 11 and bowling is probably better as well.

hadlee > Steyn
MArshall >= McGrath
Imran > Wasim
Warne = Murali

 

[Prince EWS]

My batting is stronger even without Bradman. It bats down pretty much to number 11 and bowling is probably better as well.

hadlee > Steyn
MArshall >= McGrath
Imran > Wasim
Warne = Murali

Well you're obviously going to think your own side is better given you straight up picked what you consider to be an ATWXI. It goes without saying that no-one will be able to name a team you consider better.

 

[watson]

Alfred Lyttleton - demon lobster

Is that a crustacean possessed by the devil or something?


Please feel free someone to finish the Wicketkeeper XI. The topic of Bowling Wicketkeepers is not my forte.

 

[smash84]

Well you're obviously going to think your own side is better given you straight up picked what you consider to be an ATWXI. It goes without saying that no-one will be able to name a team you consider better.

hmmm.....fair point.....

At least he did pick a close enough bowling attack

 

[kyear2]

Flower was always a good keeper, he might not be in same league as Healy,Knott & Latif's but was as good as Gilchrist if not better.And Was without any doubt is best left arm bowler ever if not best bowler ever.

Flower was really a poor keeper and while Gilchrist wasn't the best keeper ever he was certainly brilliant especially to Warne and for me a certainty for any AT XI, and if not Gilly then Knotty for sure. Walcott for all I have read and from people I have spoken too was a better keeper than Flower and it wasn't close.

Wasim is probably the second best LH fast bowler, but as the greatest? More tai end wickets taken than top or middle order batsmen, and never once topped a rating of 850 far less being the top rated bowler of his era. Yes he could do amazing things with the ball, but the results were not there to match.

Regarding captaincy, Bradman was strategically very good and commanded the respect of his team mates and could set an example in the field. Will have to see who had the better win loss record as well. And if that is the criteria for being a good captain then what about Viv who never lost a test series. Overall though, Bradman for me.

 

[H4G]

Flower was really a poor keeper and while Gilchrist wasn't the best keeper ever he was certainly brilliant especially to Warne and for me a certainty for any AT XI, and if not Gilly then Knotty for sure. Walcott for all I have read and from people I have spoken too was a better keeper than Flower and it wasn't close.

Wasim is probably the second best LH fast bowler, but as the greatest? More tai end wickets taken than top or middle order batsmen, and never once topped a rating of 850 far less being the top rated bowler of his era. Yes he could do amazing things with the ball, but the results were not there to match.

Regarding captaincy, Bradman was strategically very good and commanded the respect of his team mates and could set an example in the field. Will have to see who had the better win loss record as well. And if that is the criteria for being a good captain then what about Viv who never lost a test series. Overall though, Bradman for me.

If your criteria for better captain is win loss record only then I can only laugh at that.In last 20 years best captain I have seen is Stephen Fleming but his record is poor.Win loss depends on strength of team more than captaincy.

And I find it really funny that when defending their heroes they would often use "His contemporaries rate him very high" but they forget their own criteria when it comes to other players.This is pure double standards.yes I am Imran Khan's fan but he is rated as one of the greatest ever bowlers,allrounders,captains & cricketers not only by his contemporaries but other cricket greats,journalists,fans etc.

 

[fredfertang]

Is that a crustacean possessed by the devil or something?


Please feel free someone to finish the Wicketkeeper XI. The topic of Bowling Wicketkeepers is not my forte.

He was that 19th century England 'keeper who was brought on in desperation to bowl when Australia were about 500-6, an almost unheard of sort of score in those days, and rapidly took the last four wickets bowling underarm

 

[Lillian Thomson]

I don't think even the statsguru can produce four Test class Keeper/bowlers.

 

[Coronis]

Top 5 Captains by winning %, for those to captain 20 matches
Steve Waugh, 57 tests, 41 wins, 9 losses and 7 draws (71.93%)
Don Bradman, 24 tests, 15 wins, 3 losses and 6 draws (62.50%)
Ricky Ponting, 77 tests, 48 wins, 16 losses and 13 draws (62.34%)
Lindsay Hassett, 24 tests, 14 wins, 4 losses and 6 draws (58.33%)
Mike Brearley, 31 tests, 18 wins, 4 losses and 9 draws (58.06%)

Unsurprising top 5 really, with Waugh and Ponting, along with Bradman, playing in some of the best teams of all time. Hassett, inherited the captaincy and a wonderful team from Bradman. Brearley's captaincy period was dominated by Botham, in his peak. Bradman and Brearly both have a very low percentage of losses. While Steve Waugh dominates in terms of draws.

For the record, Viv, had a winning percentage of 54, but a huge 30% draw rate. Imran Khan was captain for 48 tests, and only won 14 (29.17%). Under his captaincy, Pakistan drew more than half the games they played, having a low percentage of losses.

 

[H4G]

Imran not only won in Australia & England & almost won three series(I think 2 of them were drawn due to very pathetic & patriotic umpiring) against West Indies when everyone else was getting hammered.but I wouldn't call that or world cup as his greatest achievement but uniting a disassembled team like Pakistan into a match winning unit which never happened before him & hasn't happened since his retirement till now.Before his retirement he was able to prepare a crop of players & until their retirement Pakistan remained a very strong team.

 

[fredfertang]

I don't think even the statsguru can produce four Test class Keeper/bowlers.

Don Tallon fancied himself as a leggie so much so that at the start of the 1949/50 season he only made himself available for Queensland on that basis - they called his bluff and left him out of the first game (not a difficult decision given Wally Grout was his understudy) and after that he kept wicket again - despite that he was given a long bowl (24 overs) against South Australia but he didn't get a wicket, nor did he in the whole of his First Class career (although tbf to him I believe he did have some decent hauls at Grade level)

 

[Coronis]

Wawrick Armstrong is an underrated captain imo. Lost many years to the war, played 10 tests as captain, winning 8 and losing none, and averaged 20 more with the bat and 10 less with the ball while captaining. Clarke has been averaging 66 since picking up the captaincy, also a 20 run improvement.

 

[NUFAN]

and what exactly is that thing?

Flower looks way out of place.

The rest of the lineup is terrific.

 

[Coronis]

What do you guys think of this lineup:

1. Jack Hobbs
2. Herb Sutcliffe
3. Don Bradman*
4. Graeme Pollock
5. Wally Hammond
6. Garry Sobers
7. Adam Gilchrist+
8. Mike Procter
9. Wasim Akram
10. Malcolm Marshall
11. Shane Warne

 

[smash84]

It is a very good line up with good batting and a very versatile bowling attack

 

[MartinB]

Imran not only won in Australia & England & almost won three series(I think 2 of them were drawn due to very pathetic & patriotic umpiring) against West Indies when everyone else was getting hammered.but I wouldn't call that or world cup as his greatest achievement but uniting a disassembled team like Pakistan into a match winning unit which never happened before him & hasn't happened since his retirement till now.Before his retirement he was able to prepare a crop of players & until their retirement Pakistan remained a very strong team.

Imran never won a series in Australia.

 

[Pothas]

Is that a crustacean possessed by the devil or something?


Please feel free someone to finish the Wicketkeeper XI. The topic of Bowling Wicketkeepers is not my forte.

Never bowled in tests but George Brown kept wicket for England and took over 600 first class wickets.

Mark Boucher got a test wicket didn't he?

 

[Plumbinfront]

I am tired of hearing about how poor Imran Khan and his side lost some series because of bad umpiring. Shakoor Rana was responsible for a number of series victories by that measure and certainly helped Javed Miandad a little with his average. Let's not make out Imran - a bloke who not averse to bending rules (bottle caps *cough*) - was some sort of victim. Fair enough he may have copped a few bad decisions but equally he and his team benefitted from utterly biased umpring at home. The Pakistani bowlers would just have to hit the pads and boom, lbw! Don't wish to side track the discussion but yeah....