Dale Steyn among the top three pacers of all time, says Waqar Younis

[NUFAN]

Bravo is not a mid range batsman... Samuels avg below 30 for most of his career. . Funny he actually made runs against Steyn. Gayle, and Sarwan are the only good/decent test batsman in recent years for WI. Chanders is in a higher class but obviously you won't have a team with many very good players like Chanders. ..I'm using players like Mark Waugh/Taylor to show their role in making a bowler work for his wicket througout an innings instead of just getting the key players.

I'm aware of Samuels rise from ordinary batsman to good. He's basically had a reverse Jimmy (Adams) not to be confused with the more entertaining reverse cowgirl. Ofcourse Adams made your mid range list.

For a bowler who cant take early wickets he's got an excellent strike rate, imagine if he actually took an early wicket..

BTW I've wanted Steyn to struggle for almost all his career in the hope that he'd average above 25, given up on that hope lately and just enjoying his performances.

 

[kyear2]

Always been a fan of the reverse cowgirl.

 

[Ilovecric]

I went to look back on the record of Ambrose and lets compare him to Steyn... This comparison will demonstrate how consistent a player like Ambrose was against all batsmen..You will also see being an opener meant you have good chance of making a duck when ambrose is bowling.. Please consider the fact that Ambrose's strike rate was 54.5 while Steyn is at a cool 41.1 ...This would suggest he is running through the top orders right ? every 41 balls he gets a wicket..but whose wicket is he getting ?

This is Ambrose - the batsman with the highest avg against him batted at number 4 - and in this position they average 28 against him..

Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo


Now lets look at Steyn -

Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo


The batsmen with the highest avg against played in position 5th averaging 35.5, second is position 6th averaging 32 and thirdly position 3rd averaging 28 against him..

This says top and middle order batsman are doing great against him - in contrast to Ambrose whose worst is 28 and second worst drops quickly to averaging 23 against him.


The class above where a bowler like Ambrose stands is evident just looking at a few stats.

Check the number of ducks the number 3 batsman makes when facing ambrose - 17, he comes in and leaves quickly like an emergency with a low average of 20. Steyn's duck rate is very low consider the fact number 3 batsmen average 28 against him - way above his career average - infact these two averages suggest a two different class of bowlers.

Another interest stat about ambrose is his consistency to the right and left handed batsman... Steyn is obviously better at bowling to right handers while with ambrose's class you were not in a better position by being a left handed - this is a difference between finished and polished product than being a good bowler.

Please remember Ambrose took 54 balls to get his wicket - which means batsmen had to sit quiet - being tormented - just waiting to get out - it was your only choice. With Steyn is either it worked or it didn't work for him - you had a chance of making runs - with ambrose you had no chance...

The number 3 position is crucial too..and the ducks count is phenomenal for ambrose -- quick early wickets - 1-2 down in no time. These things make a big difference in a match..

Steyn will get you out quickly if you are an opener but then who comes in next will hand around a little even tho Steyn is striking people out quickly.

Good record VS an impressive - finished record. But Courtney talks to no man... And who really cares if dummies want to worship Steyn - but the record speak for itself.

 

[akilana]

How does Steyn compare to the great shoaib?

 

[AaronK]

disagreed...

not even in my all time top 10 list

 

[Ilovecric]

How does Steyn compare to the great shoaib?

I did not compare them - Shoaib is not ranked in the all time great by anyone

I compared him to ambrose to show what real all time great looks like - Only a master can restrict the left and right hander alike the way ambrose did... and keeping most top order/middle order batsmen in their place - near and below his overall average. Then when you look at the number of ducks for the number 3 batsman.


Back to Shoaib - from watching them both I always found him to be more threatening - he was quicker - his presence was more intimidating - he was an extremely quick bowler who managed to have enough control to have a good test record. He is not like Tait, Fidel Edwards etc etc ..I preferred his aggression because he had the added aspect of being express ..

 

[the big bambino]

I think this is Waqar's way of saying that the top 2 aren't in doubt and out of Wasim and himself we all know who's the better bowler right?

 

[NUFAN]

Can you explain your second last para ilovecric?

You say Steyn is a bowler who takes your wicket Quickly if your an opener which is impressive for a bowler who can't take wickets in his first spell.

Also why compare him to Ambrose? I said earlier that I rate Amrose and McGrath as better, so why not compare him to someone else in the past few eras to see if you can find a better bowler.

 

[Top_Cat]

tbh, I'd expect Ambi to nip out blokes earlier than Steyn. With Steyn going for the big swing, he's more likely to give you something to work with early while Curtly's MO was to bring the ball back in off the deck. Which means Steyn's going to go for more runs and with batters just in general being more attacking by virtue of playing more LO cricket these days, I find that perfectly natural. Steyn keeps his numbers low by taking wickets in bursts whereas Curty had his moments like that but in general was more of a 'relentless' bowler.

Curtly was more of an all-wicket bowler too, his style of bowling was more likely to pick up bags of 2 and 3 to keep his average down on conditions not great for his bowling whereas Steyn can look a bit pedestrian on flat decks but will utterly murderalise you if there's any nip in the air. It's why I don't think comparing on the basis of runs scored off is definitive at all for such different bowlers. It just depends on what you value in a bowler and I'd think Curtly's average would nudge a little higher if he played today.

Have said for a long time that Curtly is, in general, criminally under-rated on here and I think that's largely because of his somewhat unglamorous style.

 

[centurymaker]

I went to look back on the record of Ambrose and lets compare him to Steyn... This comparison will demonstrate how consistent a player like Ambrose was against all batsmen..You will also see being an opener meant you have good chance of making a duck when ambrose is bowling.. Please consider the fact that Ambrose's strike rate was 54.5 while Steyn is at a cool 41.1 ...This would suggest he is running through the top orders right ? every 41 balls he gets a wicket..but whose wicket is he getting ?

This is Ambrose - the batsman with the highest avg against him batted at number 4 - and in this position they average 28 against him..

Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo


Now lets look at Steyn -

Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo


The batsmen with the highest avg against played in position 5th averaging 35.5, second is position 6th averaging 32 and thirdly position 3rd averaging 28 against him..

This says top and middle order batsman are doing great against him - in contrast to Ambrose whose worst is 28 and second worst drops quickly to averaging 23 against him.


The class above where a bowler like Ambrose stands is evident just looking at a few stats.

Check the number of ducks the number 3 batsman makes when facing ambrose - 17, he comes in and leaves quickly like an emergency with a low average of 20. Steyn's duck rate is very low consider the fact number 3 batsmen average 28 against him - way above his career average - infact these two averages suggest a two different class of bowlers.

Another interest stat about ambrose is his consistency to the right and left handed batsman... Steyn is obviously better at bowling to right handers while with ambrose's class you were not in a better position by being a left handed - this is a difference between finished and polished product than being a good bowler.

Please remember Ambrose took 54 balls to get his wicket - which means batsmen had to sit quiet - being tormented - just waiting to get out - it was your only choice. With Steyn is either it worked or it didn't work for him - you had a chance of making runs - with ambrose you had no chance...

The number 3 position is crucial too..and the ducks count is phenomenal for ambrose -- quick early wickets - 1-2 down in no time. These things make a big difference in a match..

Steyn will get you out quickly if you are an opener but then who comes in next will hand around a little even tho Steyn is striking people out quickly.

Good record VS an impressive - finished record. But Courtney talks to no man... And who really cares if dummies want to worship Steyn - but the record speak for itself.

Someone's fallen prey to the cricinfo avgs again.

Those avgs don't tell you anything............they exclude all innings in each of the positions where the bowler failed to dismiss the respective batsmen. They are basically taking the final scores of the batsmen in only the innings' in which they got out to the bowler.

 

[adub]

I like cowgirls. Reverse or not doesn't matter.

Steyn - great bowler, but of the guy's I've seen I'd have Lillee, McGrath, Imran, Wasim, Ambrose, Marshall, Holding and Garner above. Elite company, but top three of all time is a bit OTT.

 

[Satyanash89]

He's very good but I can't say he has been tested. He has never had to bowl an over like Michael Holding did to get Boycott out or his heroics of getting 14 wickets on a flat pitch.

He is way better than all the others today but the reason why he doesn't get compared to greats too often is because of the elephant in the room - he hasn't done much special against good players.

I love his pace (even tho he has been down recently) and only Shoaib Akhtar in recent time can mirror his record.. But I would even argue Akhtar was a greater threat than Steyn - he had a strike rate of 45 and avg of 25. Steyn also has a history of not getting wickets with the new ball - which to me is a big problem but it just speaks to how weak these batsman are today that even when they see off the danger man he still comes back and get wickets...

Umm... you don't know what he did to India at Nagpur a few years ago, do you? That's probably one of the greatest displays of fast bowling I've seen on a dead flat pitch... conventional swing with the new ball, ridiculous amounts of reverse swing, he just did it all.
And he doesn't get wickets with the new ball? What?

 

[Bahnz]

While I wouldn't have Steyn in my top 3, I do think there's one aspect in which he's ahead of many of his historical rivals. There aren't many other fast bowlers who have been as far ahead of the rest of the competition for such a sustained period of time as Steyn has been.

Since 2007, no other bowler has come close to sustaining the kind of record that Steyn has. The next best is probably Jimmy Anderson, and over that time he's averaged a whopping 7 more runs per wicket than Steyn did.

That might change if Vernon can keep up his ridiculous form for the next few years. And you could also argue, that Steyn's superiority is a result of a low point in the overall quality of test bowling. Still, it's an achievement that does make him kinda stand out.

 

[watson]

Here's a thought;

If you were to see Glenn McGrath bowl in his prime, but knew nothing at all about his stat's, would you really have to consult 'Stats Guru' before concluding - "****, he's a bloody great bowler."

Or, if you've just watched Michael Holding knock over Geoffrey Boycott's off-stump, then destroy the rest of the English top-order, do you really need a Radar Gun to say, "Yep, he's fast!"

Personally, I just watch Dale Steyn's magnifcent out-swinger consistently beat competent batsman match after match and know intuitively that he is an ATG. His stat's are just the iceing on the cake.

 

[kyear2]

Better than Steyn for me at this point

Marshall, Ambrose, Holding, Lindwall, Mcgrath, Lillee, Trueman

On par

Garner, Roberts, Davidson, Larwood, Hadlee, Imran, Donald (on par/just behind)

So top 15 for sure.

 

[Plumbinfront]

Steyn doesn't bowl well on flat tracks? Really? He doesn't take wickets with the new ball? Wow. That has to be one of the weirdest things I've ever read on here.

In Steyn's time India and England have had their best ever batting line-ups (arguably that is) and he has tasted great success against them. He pwned Sehwag, Tendulkar, Laxman, Gambhir on an absolute road in Nagpur and had the wood over Dravid too when they came here in 2010-11. He was instrumental in winning the series against England in England who were the number one side then. Had tremendous success against the likes of KP, Bell, Trott etc. Interesting that the Nagpur test also was a battle for supremacy as India were the number one test team then. He is a big game player, clearly. Who else? He's done well against Australia and while the Australia that Steyn played the all conquering side they were a few years prior he's had great success against the likes of Ponting and Clarke. Sri Lanka have also had arguably their best batting line up in Steyn's time (all terrible away from home but still) but he's gone okay against Jayawardene and Sanga.

Steyn has done it all. He has an average comparable to most greats in an era of flat pitches, broader bats, shorter boundaries and rules skewed in the favour of the batsmen. He has a scary strike rate, which I believe is almost unmatched? Correct me if I am wrong. He has been a big factor in RSA being the best side in the world, make no mistake. He has done it without bottlecaps and he has done it everywhere. He is gun.

 

[Days of Grace]

BUT HE DIDN'T PLAY IN THE 80S AND 90S WHEN I WAS GROWING UP!!!

Therefore, he is top 15 at best.

FFS.

 

[kyear2]

Steyn doesn't bowl well on flat tracks? Really? He doesn't take wickets with the new ball? Wow. That has to be one of the weirdest things I've ever read on here.

In Steyn's time India and England have had their best ever batting line-ups (arguably that is) and he has tasted great success against them. He pwned Sehwag, Tendulkar, Laxman, Gambhir on an absolute road in Nagpur and had the wood over Dravid too when they came here in 2010-11. He was instrumental in winning the series against England in England who were the number one side then. Had tremendous success against the likes of KP, Bell, Trott etc. Interesting that the Nagpur test also was a battle for supremacy as India were the number one test team then. He is a big game player, clearly. Who else? He's done well against Australia and while the Australia that Steyn played the all conquering side they were a few years prior he's had great success against the likes of Ponting and Clarke. Sri Lanka have also had arguably their best batting line up in Steyn's time (all terrible away from home but still) but he's gone okay against Jayawardene and Sanga.

Steyn has done it all. He has an average comparable to most greats in an era of flat pitches, broader bats, shorter boundaries and rules skewed in the favour of the batsmen. He has a scary strike rate, which I believe is almost unmatched? Correct me if I am wrong. He has been a big factor in RSA being the best side in the world, make no mistake. He has done it without bottlecaps and he has done it everywhere. He is gun.

Yes he is, and in this era of DRS, no home field advantage there either.
My only issue is minor, in that I wish he would maintain his speed through out his spells, but then again back in the '50's there was no one clocking Lindwall's deliveries, so..........

 

[Lillian Thomson]

Steyn doesn't bowl well on flat tracks? Really? He doesn't take wickets with the new ball? Wow. That has to be one of the weirdest things I've ever read on here.

You've got a lot of catching up to do.

 

[Flem274*]

Really wish people would get over Steyn not using his speed every spell. He starts off late 130s to maximise swing then comes back with the fast spell, with the even faster ball up his sleeve if he wants to hurry them up some more. It's tactical.

Great speed =/= great bowling ffs. You don't win cricket games by only bowling the fastest delivery of the match.