Who is the Best "Cricketer" Ever?

[kyear2]

Just fixed that for you kyear. Has to be this way.

Thanks Monk, but prefer it with Viv at four. Him batting with Bradman would be absolutely devastating. Would be a sight for the ages.

 

[Coronis]

**** the government, seriously. They ruin everything. Missed Clive Rice, van der Bijl, and of course cut Richards, Procter and Pollock's careers short Isn't it great they probably would be considered SA's greatest players besides possibly Kallis.

 

[the big bambino]

I belive that Lillee's avg in WSC was actually 23, but he took the most wickets by far. Procter from memory had the best averge. He really would have been special.

According to wiki Lillee played 14 supertests and took 67 wkts at 26.87. Proctor was about 32 when he played wsc and isn't featured in the top 10 bowlers list for the supertests. (sorted by wkts taken).

 

[kyear2]

Greg Chappell, Barry and Viv Richards were the only batsmen to leave the tournament with their reputations intact. Shows the kind of quality they really possessed.

 

[kyear2]

According to wiki Lillee played 14 supertests and took 67 wkts at 26.87. Proctor was about 32 when he played wsc and isn't featured in the top 10 bowlers list for the supertests. (sorted by wkts taken).

You are correct, but Ikki will challenge that shortly.

 

[the big bambino]

ikki versus wiki.

 

[Ikki]

However I think your opinion on Sobers in the 69-74 era are distorted by 3 tests played against Aus in early 1969. He averaged 76 in those matches whereas he averaged 40 overall in the series. However from 1969 Sobers played 5 more series and averaged 28, 33, 33, 28, 30 taking 53 wkts overall at 30.96.

I think a fairer indication of Sobers' bowling is his form over 5 series not 3 tests. So I'd tend to rate his form in the latter period from mid 69 to retirement. Its fairer.

Its simply not about 5 or 3 test series. His non-peak period is far too long of a sample to come down to one series. I think we can put it to bed comfortably: outside his peak period he wasn't a good bowler.

I also think rating Sobers' bowling to a frontliner is a standard designed to see him fail. He is a batting all rounder and his bowling is his off suit. Therefore it should be compared to say Imran's batting (though I can't think of stat comparison atm) or Kallis' bowling. In that regard he is certainly a candidate for greatest AR.

I am not considering him as such, he and his team considered him a front-line bowler, giving him so many overs. He had been lauded as one of the best bowlers in the world during his career (which gets abused because it was only for a short time).

 

[the big bambino]

Well it is down to those 3 tests actually. Take them out and his average falls by 6 runs a wkt over the 69-74 period. Therefore I'd rate him him on the trend over 5 subsequent series from mid 69. That being a consistent indicator of his effectiveness where as the 3 games v Aus in early 69 were just bad matches. Anyone can have them anytime.

I agree that the praise for his bowling is ott if rating him as a frontliner. Even if he was asked to fill that role doesn't mean he should not be more fairly assessed as a batting all rounder whose bowling should be compared to the likes of Kallis or S Waugh. That shows him to be pretty much the best in such a comparison.

 

[Ikki]

According to wiki Lillee played 14 supertests and took 67 wkts at 26.87. Proctor was about 32 when he played wsc and isn't featured in the top 10 bowlers list for the supertests. (sorted by wkts taken).

It doesn't count the test in NZ where Lillee took 12/89. Taking that into account his WSC record is: 15 matches, 79 wickets at 23.91, SR 41.2. Lillee also played RoW matches (where he took his infamous 8/29) against line-ups featuring Gavaskar, Zaheer Abbas, Kanhai, Pollock, Greig, Lloyd and Sobers.

When you combine Lillee's Test+WSC+RoW record, I believe his record is 89 matches, 458 wickets at 23.72, SR 50.4 (source: The Sean).

The unique thing about Lillee is that he played such a large proportion of cricket against great batting lineups (some, dream-fantasy types) and thrived.

 

[Ikki]

Well it is down to those 3 tests actually. Take them out and his average falls by 6 runs a wkt over the 69-74 period. Therefore I'd rate him him on the trend over 5 subsequent series from mid 69. That being a consistent indicator of his effectiveness where as the 3 games v Aus in early 69 were just bad matches. Anyone can have them anytime.

If you take out the Aus 3 games his average is 32.36 @ 99 balls per wicket. It's still bad.

I agree that the praise for his bowling is ott if rating him as a frontliner. Even if he was asked to fill that role doesn't mean he should not be more fairly assessed as a batting all rounder whose bowling should be compared to the likes of Kallis or S Waugh. That shows him to be pretty much the best in such a comparison.

In comparison to Waugh, yes - who really isn't considered an all-rounder as he gave up bowling. In comparison to Kallis its debatable. But I don't think either Sobers or Kallis are as valuable as the great bowling all-rounders.

 

[Red]

Considering the opponents he faced, the amount of wickets he took per test, and the amount of excellent batsmen he dismissed, there's no doubt in my mind Lillee's the best. May be only marginal, but it's enough imo.

 

[watson]

Considering the opponents he faced, the amount of wickets he took per test, and the amount of excellent batsmen he dismissed, there's no doubt in my mind Lillee's the best. May be only marginal, but it's enough imo.

I think that the statement: 'Lillee's the best bowler to ever bowl in England or Australia' is more true than just 'Lillee's the best'.

 

[Satyanash89]

Considering the opponents he faced, the amount of wickets he took per test, and the amount of excellent batsmen he dismissed, there's no doubt in my mind Lillee's the best. May be only marginal, but it's enough imo.

Don't think any other great fast bowler apart from Steyn averages over 5 wickets per match like he does either...

 

[the big bambino]

If you take out the Aus 3 games his average is 32.36 @ 99 balls per wicket. It's still bad.



In comparison to Waugh, yes - who really isn't considered an all-rounder as he gave up bowling. In comparison to Kallis its debatable. But I don't think either Sobers or Kallis are as valuable as the great bowling all-rounders.

You've added back the 3 tests against NZ just after the Oz tour. Thats fair enough. I added them into his stats from 61 to early 69. Either way its 30.96 or 32.36; still below his overall average and not wildly out of kilter from his better years. Anyway its a matter of perception. There's no doubt most would pick Sobers for his batting. His fielding being a wonderful extra. Some disagree over his bowling but I'd be happy to have a man who struck 235 times for a 5th bowler.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

Some disagree over his bowling but I'd be happy to have a man who struck 235 times for a 5th bowler.

It's a shame you missed the glory days of a poster named Buphinder Squid (or something like that) who claimed that Sobers wicket tally was just because he bowled a lot of balls, and everyone on this forum could have done the same thing. Funny thing is those that set out to ridicule Sobers are always Imran or Miller fanboys.

 

[kyear2]

Considering the opponents he faced, the amount of wickets he took per test, and the amount of excellent batsmen he dismissed, there's no doubt in my mind Lillee's the best. May be only marginal, but it's enough imo.

That is a valid point. My argument is that Marshall and Mcgrath has better numbers, dismissed just as many great batsmen but did it all over the world, especially the sub continent and what Marshall and Holding did in India in '83 on the flattest imaginable pitches vs a very strong batting line up is what puts Marshall at the top for me.

Additionally

D.Lillee - highest rating: 884 V Eng 1977. spent 10 of his 70 Tests (14.3%) rated above 850. Best batting rating: 252.
R.Lindwall - highest rating: 897 V Eng 1954. spent 22 of his 61 Tests (36.1%) rated above 850. Best batting rating: 433.
M.Marshall - highest rating: 910 V Eng 1988. spent 48 of his 81 Tests (59.3%) rated above 850. Best batting rating: 375.
C.Ambrose - highest rating: 912 V Eng 1994. spent 45 of his 98 Tests (45.9%) rated above 850. Best batting rating: 229.
W.Akram - highest rating: 830 V Aus 1994. spent 0 of his 104 Tests (0.0%) rated above 850. Best batting rating: 473.
G.McGrath - highest rating: 914 V Eng 2001. spent 83 of his 124 Tests (66.9%) rated above 850. Best batting rating: 123.
A.Davidson - highest rating: 908 V WI 1961. spent 18 of his 44 Tests (40.9%) rated above 850. Best batting rating: 526.
R.Hadlee - highest rating: 909 V Aus 1985. spent 41 of his 86 Tests (47.7%) rated above 850. Best batting rating: 562.

Marshall and Mcgrath were more consistent.

 

[Satyanash89]

D.Lillee - highest rating: 884 V Eng 1977. spent 10 of his 70 Tests (14.3%) rated above 850. Best batting rating: 252.
R.Lindwall - highest rating: 897 V Eng 1954. spent 22 of his 61 Tests (36.1%) rated above 850. Best batting rating: 433.
M.Marshall - highest rating: 910 V Eng 1988. spent 48 of his 81 Tests (59.3%) rated above 850. Best batting rating: 375.
C.Ambrose - highest rating: 912 V Eng 1994. spent 45 of his 98 Tests (45.9%) rated above 850. Best batting rating: 229.
W.Akram - highest rating: 830 V Aus 1994. spent 0 of his 104 Tests (0.0%) rated above 850. Best batting rating: 473.
G.McGrath - highest rating: 914 V Eng 2001. spent 83 of his 124 Tests (66.9%) rated above 850. Best batting rating: 123.
A.Davidson - highest rating: 908 V WI 1961. spent 18 of his 44 Tests (40.9%) rated above 850. Best batting rating: 526.
R.Hadlee - highest rating: 909 V Aus 1985. spent 41 of his 86 Tests (47.7%) rated above 850. Best batting rating: 562.

Marshall and Mcgrath were more consistent.

Akram never cracked 850?! I've always thought, while obviously a magnificent bowler, he was never as great as his reputation. Didn't demolish attacks and create fear in them like Waqar did. He could do ****ing everything with the ball but I think he slightly underperformed

 

[Coronis]

Akram has such a good reputation, yet he doesn't seem to match up that well to other ATG fast bowlers.

 

[kyear2]

Hence why I don't rate him highyly at all. Tail end wickets percentage also was just too high for a new ball bowler.

 

[smash84]

kyear2 can you please post similar figures for Imran, Donald and Michael Holding?