watson
Banned
Marshall-Lillee-Barnes-Warne-Sobers has it all to test any batsman- Pace, aggression, swing, wrist-spin, finger-spin, left-arm....
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The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread
- Thread starter Red
- Start date
Coronis
International Coach
Fixed
Would be replacing Sutcliffe/Hutton. I'd also rather McGrath than Lillee, and Murali than Warne, but those are just personal preference.
Red
The normal awards that everyone else has
I don't. Just saying. First picked every time.
Eds
International Debutant
Sorry to be a pedant, but didn't Barnes/Warne/Sobers all 'turn' it the same way?
fredfertang
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Red
The normal awards that everyone else has
watson
Banned
Benaud and Warne in the same team would be a waste because they were very similar bowlers. However, Barnes-Warne-Sobers were very different spinners despite their stock delivery being the leg-break. Warne delivered the ball with a slow round arm action (typical wrist-spinner) with lots of loop, Barnes bowled relatively quickly with a tall upright action (typical finger-spinner) and regularly spun the ball both ways, as well as swing it. Sobers was a left-armer who more commonly bowled fast-medium.......etc. In reality we are talking 'chalk and cheese'.
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kyear2
International Coach
It's facinating that many people with in depth knowledge of the history of the game have such different visions of what at AT XI should look like.
Watsons, Coronis and my XI's only have Hobbs, Bradman, Sobers, Marshall and Warne in common and if even one more person added their team to their sig, that list would drop even futher, probably just ti Hobbs and Bradman.
One question though, how does Pollock surpass Richards, Lara, Tendulkar and Chappell when they played in the most difficult eras of fast and spin bowlers and succeeded againts the best, Chappell in particular gets really short changed in the comparrison when we look at what he did in WSC. Pollock in particular only played a series againts Benaud and one game againts Statham and Snow each and it was Stathams last game and Snow's second. That combined with the fact that he played only 20 tests in a quiet period for great bowlers in a very strong lineup and team in general. Even Headly in comparrison played againts better bolwers (Verity, Grimmett, Ironmonger ect) and on a very weak team (where Atlas was the only batsman of quaity) where he bore the brunt of the pressure and the opposition's attention, faced more challenging circumstances. And he is normally discounted because of the number of tests he played. Just wondering about the though process.
Watsons, Coronis and my XI's only have Hobbs, Bradman, Sobers, Marshall and Warne in common and if even one more person added their team to their sig, that list would drop even futher, probably just ti Hobbs and Bradman.
One question though, how does Pollock surpass Richards, Lara, Tendulkar and Chappell when they played in the most difficult eras of fast and spin bowlers and succeeded againts the best, Chappell in particular gets really short changed in the comparrison when we look at what he did in WSC. Pollock in particular only played a series againts Benaud and one game againts Statham and Snow each and it was Stathams last game and Snow's second. That combined with the fact that he played only 20 tests in a quiet period for great bowlers in a very strong lineup and team in general. Even Headly in comparrison played againts better bolwers (Verity, Grimmett, Ironmonger ect) and on a very weak team (where Atlas was the only batsman of quaity) where he bore the brunt of the pressure and the opposition's attention, faced more challenging circumstances. And he is normally discounted because of the number of tests he played. Just wondering about the though process.
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Lillian Thomson
Hall of Fame Member
You can get too bogged down worrying thought processes. I just pick what I can consider from watching and reading over many years who I consider to be the best two openers, the best three middle order batsman, the best allrounder, the best keeper, the best two pacemen and the best two spinners.
1. Barry Richards
2. Jack Hobbs
3. Don Bradman
4. Viv Richards
5. Sachin Tendulkar
6. Garry Sobers
7. Alan Knott
8. Shane Warne
9. Malcolm Marshall
10. Dennis Lillee
11. Muttiah Muralitharan
You can rabbit on all day about having Gilchrist as the keeper and using Imran and get the slide rule out and say that Viv rarely batted at 4 or Barry Richards didn't play enough. I couldn't give a monkey's about any of that drivel - that team wouldn't get beaten very often.
1. Barry Richards
2. Jack Hobbs
3. Don Bradman
4. Viv Richards
5. Sachin Tendulkar
6. Garry Sobers
7. Alan Knott
8. Shane Warne
9. Malcolm Marshall
10. Dennis Lillee
11. Muttiah Muralitharan
You can rabbit on all day about having Gilchrist as the keeper and using Imran and get the slide rule out and say that Viv rarely batted at 4 or Barry Richards didn't play enough. I couldn't give a monkey's about any of that drivel - that team wouldn't get beaten very often.
harsh.ag
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Best post on this topic I have read in a while. I have the same team, except I have Imran for Sachin/Viv (as the mood suits for me) at number 7 and Gilly for Knott at number six.
Would be wonderful to watch both the teams.
Coronis
International Coach
Precisely. I don't consider Headley not to have played enough, but based on what I have heard, read and learned for myself, he's not in my side. He is in my 2nd XI though.
watson
Banned
It makes some sense to replace Gilchrist with Alan Knott if there are two spinners in the side despite the fact that Gilchrist was obviously used to Warne's bowling. Knott was supreme standing up to the stumps.
JBMAC
State Captain
Nowhere near the calibre of Don Tallon
fredfertang
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
I saw Knotty play loads of times, and Don Tallon was way before my time, so I can't make a direct comparison, but despite the glowing terms in which all his contemporaries describe his keeping I do wonder about Tallon
For example the only truly great spinner he kept to in Tests was Tiger O'Reilly, just the once, in NZ just after the war - NZ mustered just 96 in their two innings combined, 8 of them byes
In 46/47 Tallon conceded 91 byes in the 5 Tests, as against 47 by Godfrey Evans for England, which strikes me (in both cases) to be a lot more than you'd expect given their reputations
watson
Banned
Since the number of byes was mentioned - Paul Downton has the best record in wicket-keeping since WWII. That is, he conceded just 84 Byes in 29,517 deliveries.
The Top 10 Misers are;
Paul Downton
Dave Richardson
Alan Knott
Naren Tamhane
Ian Smith
Khalid Mashud
Syed Kirmani
Kiran More
Bob Taylor
Ridley Jacobs
See article: Blogs: Analysing wicketkeepers by byes conceded | Cricket Blogs | ESPN Cricinfo
Note: There is a 'fudge factor' that adjusts the Byes : Deliveries ratio according to which country the Test match was played in. This is because, 'wicket-keeping is easier in some countries than in others'. I assume that the author has made the 'fudge factor' fair.
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Lillian Thomson
Hall of Fame Member
The number of byes is a nonsense way to judge a keeper unless you see them all being conceded and can say how many were his fault.
watson
Banned
That's true. But the assumption would be that each and every bowling attack is equally culpable.
Also, 84 Byes conceded over 29,517 deliveries is still impressive however you view it, and must carry some statistical weight because 29,000+ is a big number (in relative terms).
Lillian Thomson
Hall of Fame Member
Very wild assumption.
Half the bowlers Downton kept wicket to very rarely beat the bat.
