Greatest Bowler

[Ikki]

Wow! Some debate going on here it must be said. A few points : 1) I see the bloke who refused to make allowances for Tendulkar being injured against McGrath in a couple of matches is now using the same line of defence for Warne. Hmmm, hey, we all have our biases. Not a biggie. 2) The argument used for Pak bowlers by Ikki is nonsense. Pak bowlers weren't born swing bowlers, they had to ADAPT because of the nature of the pitches. Similarly, Warne too made adjustments for his home pitches (bounce, etc) and learnt to bowl on them in a manner that produced optimal results for him. Shouldn't get extra credit there because both Warne and Murali had exceptional away records so that shouldn't be a factor. 3) Murali's away average is skewed by one bad place (ATG side, harsh conditions, small sample) just like Ponting's overall away average is skewed by one very poor record (India). 4) Murali faced a stronger Indian line up and he was clearly past his peak in that last series. Moreover, India prepared flat decks against Sri Lanka more often than they did against Aus because they didn't want to give Murali a sniff. You can check the number of high scoring draws in India-SL tests in India during this period if you want. 5) Warne is a better bowler by a hair's width IMO but the arguments presented here are farcical. 6) The best bowler of all time is Glenn McGrath. No one has a record as complete. Marshall has a crap record in one place IIRC.

1) I didn't make that defence here, because as I mentioned in spite of those injuries he still has the better record.

2) Excuse me, it doesn't matter if they weren't born swing bowlers. No one is born anything in any place, even if the home in question suits a certain type of bowling. The insinuation that bowling in X is harder - therefore they had to 'adapt' - is relative only to a point. One can only 'adapt' so much. But as aforesaid, Imran, the 2 Ws, had far better records at home than they did away. If Pakistan is such a terrible place to bowl then they'd take advantage bowling away from home. Clearly, the hypothesis doesn't match the real world. Warne, however, averages better away than at home. Which means despite his adapting, his home pitches were still worse for him than those away. And it makes total sense when you take into consideration the type of bowling they did (swing/spin).

3) Take Murali's worst overseas record out and he still does far better at home than away. And if you want to be fair, take Warne's worst out too .

4) This doesn't begin to qualify as an excuse if Warne's injuries don't. Those were far more trying circumstances.

5) Warne, whether being better or not is still arguable, but the arguments aren't farcical.

6) Glenn McGrath does have holes in his resume. The only complete bowling record I can think of is Marshall's. However, that shouldn't mean it automatically makes him the best.

 

[akilana]

Lol. Take that away. Take this away.

Australia is Warne's home country. He grew up bowling and bowling spin. If spin bowling was harder than fast bowling, he wouldn't have taken it up. He doesn't need extra kudos for doing well in his home country nor do the Pakistani bowlers. Most of the touring fast bowlers, including Mcgrath and Donlad failed in Pakistan but W & W were very successful because they knew how to bowl well in their home conditions. For a change, I think you should start nitpicking Warne for performing slightly worse at home.
Anyways his home/away record shows that bowling wasn't harder in Australia than anywhere else.

 

[benchmark00]

He was so good that he was born with an Ashes urn on his giant penis.

 

[Ikki]

Lol. Take that away. Take this away.

Australia is Warne's home country. He grew up bowling and bowling spin. If spin bowling was harder than fast bowling, he wouldn't have taken it up. He doesn't need extra kudos for doing well in his home country nor do the Pakistani bowlers. Most of the touring fast bowlers, including Mcgrath and Donlad failed in Pakistan but W & W were very successful because they knew how to bowl well in their home conditions. For a change, I think you should start nitpicking Warne for performing slightly worse at home.
Anyways his home/away record shows that bowling wasn't harder in Australia than anywhere else.

LOL, er, what?

 

[akilana]

I was just trying to say your argument was horrible.

 

[harsh.ag]

Lol. Take that away. Take this away.

Australia is Warne's home country. He grew up bowling and bowling spin. If spin bowling was harder than fast bowling, he wouldn't have taken it up. He doesn't need extra kudos for doing well in his home country nor do the Pakistani bowlers. Most of the touring fast bowlers, including Mcgrath and Donlad failed in Pakistan but W & W were very successful because they knew how to bowl well in their home conditions. For a change, I think you should start nitpicking Warne for performing slightly worse at home.
Anyways his home/away record shows that bowling wasn't harder in Australia than anywhere else.

Yeah, a country which produced O'Reilly, Grimmett and Benaud has to be a place not conducive to leg spin bowling. Makes sense.

 

[Ikki]

I was just trying to say your argument was horrible.

You just made statements which are wrong, without even attempting to argue why they may be right.

Yeah, a country which produced O'Reilly, Grimmett and Benaud has to be a place not conducive to leg spin bowling. Makes sense.

O'Reilly and Grimmett come from a totally different era (~60-70 years apart from Warne), one that bowled on uncovered wickets. Benaud, while a good spinner, is not on the same planet as Warne. And, worse, he and O'Reilly bowled far better away than at home. If you're going to make an argument, please don't be ridiculous and make arguments like the above. And before you say Grimmett, look at his home/away record closely.

In reality, you won't be able to make the argument you want to make - Australia being a good place to bowl spin during Warne's time - because it simply isn't true. The point was not that Australia can't produce good/great spinner, but that their overall records will take a hit because bowling away has been more conducive to spin than at home.

 

[akilana]

There's no excuse for him to bowl worse in the place he grew up learning the art.

 

[Ikki]

There's no excuse for him to bowl worse in the place he grew up learning the art.

You did it again.

The pitches are worse. That's the whole point. You seem to be implying that you have to be expected to bowl better at home than away, which is ridiculous. If Warne bowls on sticky wickets in Dunedin then that will be a better pitch than his home, it's that simple.

More to the point, we are talking about averages here. That bowling in Australia will raise one's average due to the factor of difficulty bowling in Australia. That doesn't mean Warne bowled worse, per se. He is the best spinner, from any country, to bowl in Australia during his career.

 

[Jono]

You blokes minds are set in stone. Just talking to brick walls as usual.

 

[Coronis]

Good show though.

 

[Ikki]

Jono's just mad no one is talking about Kohli.

 

[akilana]

No. What you said is ridiculous. It's not expected that home performances be better, but there's no excuse if it is not.

 

[Ikki]

No. What you said is ridiculous. It's not expected that home performances be better, but there's no excuse if it is not.

What are you even talking about?

Warne was the best spinner to bowl in Australia during his career, that's what should be expected. Your averages however are a different consideration. Just like scoring a 50 on one pitch is not the same as scoring a 50 on another pitch.

If you don't understand the distinction, then god help you, I can't do much for you.

 

[harsh.ag]

You just made statements which are wrong, without even attempting to argue why they may be right.



O'Reilly and Grimmett come from a totally different era (~60-70 years apart from Warne), one that bowled on uncovered wickets. Benaud, while a good spinner, is not on the same planet as Warne. And, worse, he and O'Reilly bowled far better away than at home. If you're going to make an argument, please don't be ridiculous and make arguments like the above. And before you say Grimmett, look at his home/away record closely.

In reality, you won't be able to make the argument you want to make - Australia being a good place to bowl spin during Warne's time - because it simply isn't true. The point was not that Australia can't produce good/great spinner, but that their overall records will take a hit because bowling away has been more conducive to spin than at home.

Okay, hotshot, what about Stuart MacGill? Here is his home/away record:

Home - 135 wickets @ 27.68 and SR 53.3
Away - 73 wickets @ 31.50 and SR 55.3

Same time as Warne, no?

 

[akilana]

You blokes minds are set in stone. Just talking to brick walls as usual.

Haha sorry.

 

[Ikki]

Okay, hotshot, what about Stuart MacGill? Here is his home/away record:

Home - 135 wickets @ 27.68 and SR 53.3
Away - 73 wickets @ 31.50 and SR 55.3

Same time as Warne, no?

Did you watch cricket much during this time? It doesn't appear so.

Stuart MacGill was generally played when the pitches were conducive to spin at home. They were basically the only times you'd see both MacGill and Warne bowl together - his record is fantastic at these times.

And, even IF, this, or any other singular bowler was a legitimate counter-argument, it is more like an outlier. Christ, just look at the spin averages in each country during their careers. Look at the spinners bowling in Australia - from Australia and abroad. We are arguing over something which isn't really debatable.

 

[akilana]

Okay, hotshot, what about Stuart MacGill? Here is his home/away record:

Home - 135 wickets @ 27.68 and SR 53.3
Away - 73 wickets @ 31.50 and SR 55.3

Same time as Warne, no?

Haha that's it. You will be presented with some logic-defying explanation and later accused of not being able to understand. That's all for this thread.

 

[harsh.ag]

Did you watch cricket much during this time? It doesn't appear so.

Stuart MacGill was generally played when the pitches were conducive to spin at home. They were basically the only times you'd see both MacGill and Warne bowl together - his record is fantastic at these times.

And, even IF, this, or any other singular bowler was a legitimate counter-argument, it is more like an outlier. Christ, just look at the spin averages in each country during their careers. Look at the spinners bowling in Australia - from Australia and abroad. We are arguing over something which isn't really debatable.

Oh, but Ikki, I thought that Warne was the ultimate outlier, wasn't he? I mean, there would sooner be a Bradman than a Warne, right? If he wasn't an outlier, then on what basis are you calling him to be the best of all time above Murali?

 

[akilana]

Did you watch cricket much during this time? It doesn't appear so.

Stuart MacGill was generally played when the pitches were conducive to spin at home. They were basically the only times you'd see both MacGill and Warne bowl together - his record is fantastic at these times.

And, even IF, this, or any other singular bowler was a legitimate counter-argument, it is more like an outlier. Christ, just look at the spin averages in each country during their careers. Look at the spinners bowling in Australia - from Australia and abroad. We are arguing over something which isn't really debatable.

Honestly, this is a weak argument. When both of them bowled together, Mcgill out-bowled Warne.