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Greatest Bowler

Greatest Bolwer of All


  • Total voters
    84
  • Poll closed .

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
haha....dude, relax.

Although the question has recently been plaguing my mind a lot. That SC batsmen are labeled FTBs for scoring on home tracks and SC bowlers are not given extra points for bowling on those pitches. You can't have it both ways.
Yes, you can. This has been brought to your attention several times but it seems like you aren't willing to accept it.

The pitches are flat which make scoring runs easier because the variable bounce and pace is predictable/beneficial to the batsmen. On the other hand, those great SC bowlers were largely swing bowlers. That means the flat pitches aren't hindering them since they're weaponising the change of direction in the air rather than off the pitch.
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
How successful was Vaas away from home?
Excluding England, Vaas was generally as good as he was away from home as he was at home. More importantly, regardless, Vaas was always a very tight bowler who gave away little. He helped build pressure.
 

akilana

International 12th Man
Ikki has said nothing new he hasn't said before and all of it same **** but different colour. Warne bowled in more innings despite being crap in India is because rest of the bowlers bowled really well and his team mates batted well that allowed him extra innings.

Lol at you over-rating Vaas to suit your argument. Warne had at least 3 bowlers better than Warne to create pressure and sustain it. Don't forget the huge totals his team mates regularly put on the board which help him with scoreboard pressure and allowed him lot of freedom to attack.
 

Satyanash89

Banned
Line after line of garbage, frankly.

Imran, the 2 Ws, were swing bowlers. They took the pitch out of the equation. Had they been seam bowlers of the McGrath type and were able to be as successful, you may have had a point. In reality, they were much better at home than away.

Warne was better away than at home, and that is precisely because his home pitches did not suit his bowling, save Sydney. Warne's record in SL, on those pitches, is incredible. He outbowled Murali head-to-head there when their teams were at their most equal - the SL batsmen are imperious at home and great players of spin. The 04 series was owned by Warne.

Even more nonsense: that the PM caused Murali to bowl badly. The assertion that it is harder to bowl spin in Australia is not based on the fact that Murali did terribly there but that basically all spin bowlers did terribly there. It is a place where spinners, even domestically, even Warne, struggled. The two best places in the world to bowl spin? India and Sri Lanka.

Of course you'd want to look at common opposition: it would take out Murali's worst record (Australia) and also take out Warne's best (Sri Lanka). It doesn't need any further explaining why that would be disingenuous. See, it is pretty easy: Warne was clearly better than Murali away from home. Murali averages closer to 30 and strikes 60+. As aforesaid, Warne averaged even better away than at home.

Your point re his team composition and his own bowling load has been brought up several times. Bowling by yourself, at the opposition, also means getting more wickets, in loads, which aids your average. Although it is true that Murali had responsibility to defend more, he also had the opportunity to bowl to more batsmen (he came earlier on and bowled many more overs). These things even out, they're not simply/solely a disadvantage.

Murali is more successful in SL because the pitches have been doctored to his strengths. That was the smart thing to do, that was the right thing to do. Having your own batsmen put up good totals, etc, is fine, but you're exaggerating it greatly. That affects your win/loss record more, but not so much your ratios. In the end you have to bowl out the opposition regardless of how many runs your own batsmen put up. Ironically, if they don't put up enough the opposition may not have to make as many and Murali may concede less runs on aggregate.

Against India, Murali played more matches, Warne played more innings. The fact that Warne played several series injured more than counterbalances the fact that Murali had a bad last series. And even if he did, so what? Do we discount it? Warne had a very good last series and could have had an even better one if he wasn't injured for the Test where Michael Clarke took 6/9.

Warne wasn't horrible in WI, see... you don't know what you're talking about. Warne had good/great series home and away against WI in every series bar 1 away. And that series was when he had huge shoulder injuries. He was having trouble against everyone - he averaged 55 in the Ashes before the WI series that taints his WI record. Since he only had 1 other series away (avg 27, sr 55) it makes it look like he had a problem there, against them. At that time he was basically learning to bowl all over again. This is well documented.



Of course it is, it touts your "Pak bowlers should get extra credit when bowling at home" argument.
I honestly cannot disagree with anything here because it's mostly all perfectly true. Top post
 
Wow! Some debate going on here it must be said. A few points : 1) I see the bloke who refused to make allowances for Tendulkar being injured against McGrath in a couple of matches is now using the same line of defence for Warne. Hmmm, hey, we all have our biases. Not a biggie. 2) The argument used for Pak bowlers by Ikki is nonsense. Pak bowlers weren't born swing bowlers, they had to ADAPT because of the nature of the pitches. Similarly, Warne too made adjustments for his home pitches (bounce, etc) and learnt to bowl on them in a manner that produced optimal results for him. Shouldn't get extra credit there because both Warne and Murali had exceptional away records so that shouldn't be a factor. 3) Murali's away average is skewed by one bad place (ATG side, harsh conditions, small sample) just like Ponting's overall away average is skewed by one very poor record (India). 4) Murali faced a stronger Indian line up and he was clearly past his peak in that last series. Moreover, India prepared flat decks against Sri Lanka more often than they did against Aus because they didn't want to give Murali a sniff. You can check the number of high scoring draws in India-SL tests in India during this period if you want. 5) Warne is a better bowler by a hair's width IMO but the arguments presented here are farcical. 6) The best bowler of all time is Glenn McGrath. No one has a record as complete. Marshall has a crap record in one place IIRC.
 

Pothas

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
The best bowler of all time is Glenn McGrath. No one has a record as complete. Marshall has a crap record in one place IIRC.
I am fairly sure he didn't .

Don't really go in for these things, certainly not in detail but always been happy to accept Marshall. This might be in part because of his Hampshire connections and my Dad always rated him the highest but what 'evidence' there is has always supported this.

Find comparing quicks to spinners very difficult anyway, Ambrose and McGrath easily the best pace bowlers I have seen, personally find it very hard to split those two.
 
I am fairly sure he didn't .

Don't really go in for these things, certainly not in detail but always been happy to accept Marshall. This might be in part because of his Hampshire connections and my Dad always rated him the highest but what 'evidence' there is has always supported this.

Find comparing quicks to spinners very difficult anyway, Ambrose and McGrath easily the best pace bowlers I have seen, personally find it very hard to split those two.
I remember one of the great West Indians have a poor record against NZ. Must be Sobers then, my bad. Agree with you though, good post. It's a pretty futile exercise. What I find annoying is strawman arguments used to prop up the case of your own favourites and discredit other greats of the game. As regards big Amby and Mcgrath, I agree they're hard to split. I think one area that you could say McGrath was better in - if you had to really nitpick i.e - is that he never let his head go down. I've watched spells where Curtly on not getting quick wickets would stop trying to get wickets and become restrictive and defensive. Never seen that with McGrath. Would much rather face the Aussie though.
 

Pothas

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Yeah Sobers has a famously poor batting record against New Zealand. Checked Marshall and he has an average record in New Zealand (32) but that is only in 3 tests. If that it enough to mark someone down then we may as well give up, rest of his record is impeccable.

Agree on facing Ambrose, remember watching him live when I was pretty young and left a very big impression, cannot think of someone more terrifying to face.
 

Slifer

International Captain
Wow! Some debate going on here it must be said. A few points : 1) I see the bloke who refused to make allowances for Tendulkar being injured against McGrath in a couple of matches is now using the same line of defence for Warne. Hmmm, hey, we all have our biases. Not a biggie. 2) The argument used for Pak bowlers by Ikki is nonsense. Pak bowlers weren't born swing bowlers, they had to ADAPT because of the nature of the pitches. Similarly, Warne too made adjustments for his home pitches (bounce, etc) and learnt to bowl on them in a manner that produced optimal results for him. Shouldn't get extra credit there because both Warne and Murali had exceptional away records so that shouldn't be a factor. 3) Murali's away average is skewed by one bad place (ATG side, harsh conditions, small sample) just like Ponting's overall away average is skewed by one very poor record (India). 4) Murali faced a stronger Indian line up and he was clearly past his peak in that last series. Moreover, India prepared flat decks against Sri Lanka more often than they did against Aus because they didn't want to give Murali a sniff. You can check the number of high scoring draws in India-SL tests in India during this period if you want. 5) Warne is a better bowler by a hair's width IMO but the arguments presented here are farcical. 6) The best bowler of all time is Glenn McGrath. No one has a record as complete. Marshall has a crap record in one place IIRC.
I'd really like to know where MM has a "crap record". Cant be NZ since he averages 32 there over 3 tests (2 he played injured). Thats the only place MM averages over 25. Otherwise its sub 25 home/away vs everyone. Mcgrath by comparison, averages 31 in Pakistan, 29 in SL, 33 at home vs NZ and 31 and home vs RSA. AFAIC not nearly as complete a record, nor as outstanding MM. Nice try though
 

Coronis

International Coach
Ah, this thread has turned into quite the comedy show. Sad thing here is, Larwood has more votes than Barnes. Interested to know who LHC's other is.
 
Last edited:

coolkuna

Cricket Spectator
McGrath for me. He is vastly underrated. Marshall relied too much on physical intimidation for my liking. I guess, the rules at that time allowed him to do that and he took full advantage of it. Umpires were often too weak to warn him. Even listening to this rare, hazy video would give one an idea what sort of courage it required from batsmen in the 80s to face Marshall. I remember Marshall bowling a lethal bouncer even at Indian tail-ender Balwinder Sandhu in 1983 World Cup Final. Strict bouncer restrictions in Test cricket were put into effect only in 1991. ICC (or rather ECB back then ;) ) got fed up with WI bullying everyone except Pakistan for nearly 15 years and decided to do something about it.

Although McGrath too relied on verbal or mental intimidation, it was more bearable for me than to see Marshall just aiming to hit batsmen to intimidate them.

Like Marshall, McGrath had success against all sides. Averaged 21.3 in batting friendly conditions of India against a very strong, Indian batting line-up. McGrath's impact on the performances of the best batsmen of the opposition was remarkable. Stats of all great batsmen (Tendulkar, Lara, Dravid, Laxman included) suffered severely in his presence in the Aus side.

His penchant of consistently removing the best batsman of the opposition is a clincher for me.

I apologize to Marshall fans. Don't mean to trivialize his amazing stats.
 

centurymaker

Cricketer Of The Year
McGrath for me. He is vastly underrated. Marshall relied too much on physical intimidation for my liking. I guess, the rules at that time allowed him to do that and he took full advantage of it. Umpires were often too weak to warn him. Even listening to this rare, hazy video would give one an idea what sort of courage it required from batsmen in the 80s to face Marshall. I remember Marshall bowling a lethal bouncer even at Indian tail-ender Balwinder Sandhu in 1983 World Cup Final. Strict bouncer restrictions in Test cricket were put into effect only in 1991. ICC (or rather ECB back then ;) ) got fed up with WI bullying everyone except Pakistan for nearly 15 years and decided to do something about it.

Although McGrath too relied on verbal or mental intimidation, it was more bearable for me than to see Marshall just aiming to hit batsmen to intimidate them.

Like Marshall, McGrath had success against all sides. Averaged 21.3 in batting friendly conditions of India against a very strong, Indian batting line-up. McGrath's impact on the performances of the best batsmen of the opposition was remarkable. Stats of all great batsmen (Tendulkar, Lara, Dravid, Laxman included) suffered severely in his presence in the Aus side.

His penchant of consistently removing the best batsman of the opposition is a clincher for me.

I apologize to Marshall fans. Don't mean to trivialize his amazing stats.
I guess Bradman held similar views about the 70s/80s? ( he didn't pick anyone really from that era of intimidation?)
 

harsh.ag

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
I guess Bradman held similar views about the 70s/80s? ( he didn't pick anyone really from that era of intimidation?)
He picked Barry and Lillee, didn't he? But yeah, not so much as a nod to the West Indian quartet, and the same went for Benaud. None of them were even on his nominated list (Lillee, Trueman, McGrath, Lindwall, Larwood, Barnes)
 

Flem274*

123/5
What makes me pick McGrath over the rest by a miniscule margin is he did it during the 2000s, where only a select few bowlers were world class and almost every side had at least one batsman averaging 50+ due to the more friendly conditions creeping in (this is also why Steyn has risen in my estimations rapidly).

Marshall or Hadlee or whoever might have been the best bowler in the 80s, and the 80s was an era of superb bowling, but conditions were a bit easier for them and none of them separated themselves from the pack like McGrath did.

It's nitpicky and unlike some I'm not 100% convinced my opinion is right come hell or high water, but in order to decide who the best is out of a group of superb equals I needed to use circumstances outside the control of the players. Incidentally this is why I stack my all time eleven with batting and bowling allrounders. There is piss between a large group of great players so you need to select with all the facets of cricket in mind. It's why I choose Warne over Murali, for example.
 

harsh.ag

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
What makes me pick McGrath over the rest by a miniscule margin is he did it during the 2000s, where only a select few bowlers were world class and almost every side had at least one batsman averaging 50+ due to the more friendly conditions creeping in (this is also why Steyn has risen in my estimations rapidly).

Marshall or Hadlee or whoever might have been the best bowler in the 80s, and the 80s was an era of superb bowling, but conditions were a bit easier for them and none of them separated themselves from the pack like McGrath did.

It's nitpicky and unlike some I'm not 100% convinced my opinion is right come hell or high water, but in order to decide who the best is out of a group of superb equals I needed to use circumstances outside the control of the players. Incidentally this is why I stack my all time eleven with batting and bowling allrounders. There is piss between a large group of great players so you need to select with all the facets of cricket in mind. It's why I choose Warne over Murali, for example.
I agree with you in most ways, but I honestly don't see what Hadlee or Garner could have done more to be called the best.

The only reason I would choose Warne over Murali would be that it would be more fun, and that for me is a more than good enough reason :D
 

complan

Cricket Spectator
McGrath for me. He is vastly underrated. Marshall relied too much on physical intimidation for my liking. I guess, the rules at that time allowed him to do that and he took full advantage of it. Umpires were often too weak to warn him. Even listening to this rare, hazy video would give one an idea what sort of courage it required from batsmen in the 80s to face Marshall. I remember Marshall bowling a lethal bouncer even at Indian tail-ender Balwinder Sandhu in 1983 World Cup Final. Strict bouncer restrictions in Test cricket were put into effect only in 1991. ICC (or rather ECB back then ;) ) got fed up with WI bullying everyone except Pakistan for nearly 15 years and decided to do something about it.

Although McGrath too relied on verbal or mental intimidation, it was more bearable for me than to see Marshall just aiming to hit batsmen to intimidate them.

Like Marshall, McGrath had success against all sides. Averaged 21.3 in batting friendly conditions of India against a very strong, Indian batting line-up. McGrath's impact on the performances of the best batsmen of the opposition was remarkable. Stats of all great batsmen (Tendulkar, Lara, Dravid, Laxman included) suffered severely in his presence in the Aus side.

His penchant of consistently removing the best batsman of the opposition is a clincher for me.

I apologize to Marshall fans. Don't mean to trivialize his amazing stats.
Very good analysis. Though I wouldn't consider verbal intimidation aka sledging aka trash talking to be better than physical intimidation. I consider VI to be cowardly and passive-aggressive ... but that's just me.

Most of us know this, but it's worth mentioning again that the WI "terrorizers" of the 70s/80s were motivated/inspired by Lillee and Thommo's success 1974-76 and 75-76 drubbing. That's of course no excuse for over-using the bouncer and intimidation.

Coming back to Marshall vs McGrath, I still think Marshall was much better. He could out-think the best batsman like McGrath, and it's not his fault that he was faster and had a meaner bouncer :-)
 

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