*Official* English Football Season 2012-13

[Pothas]

But but I just looked at the stats and it says that Mertesacker has the 3rd best pass completion in the league and Carragher has the 5th best, both clearly ball playing maestros

 

[sledger]

But but I just looked at the stats and it says that Mertesacker has the 3rd best pass completion in the league and Carragher has the 5th best, both clearly ball playing maestros

I really hope you're not making that up. That's great.

I think I've mentioned it on here before, but I remember a few years back someone or other was crowing about how Eboue had one of the highest pass completion rates in the Champions League for that season. Then someone actually looked into this in detail, and found that something like 85% of all of his passes were backwards passes to Kolo Toure.

 

[Pothas]

True I promise, well according that whoscored thingy anyway.

They can tell you a few things though, Messi and Ronaldo are the best two players in La Liga apparently. I mean who knew?

 

[Ikki]

You can't tell me whether or not other people have said something is rubbish ffs. They said it, it's a matter of fact that's not up for discussion. FMD.

That some people may have said it is not a talking point. You made it out as if it was something the grand majority of Liverpool fans would agree with you on. Allen hasn't played anywhere near that bad, going back to his Swansea days; so the insinuation that he has been playing so bad that it was a predictable occurrence is rubbish.

Really hate pass completion stats. Such a lazy way of trying to show a player's worth.

I find it quite ironic how using stats is lazy in comparison to not using stats. The point re Allen is that if nothing else goes right for him, he is almost a certainty to pass at a world-class level. That he couldn't, and the extent of how bad he was, is represented in those stats and also makes sense when you look at our midfield being overrun.

I'd say it was more down to the 4-4-2 we tried to play than Allen's performance. He'd been asked to play as part of a midfield two with Gerrard and that was always going to go badly but that's Rodgers' fault not Allen's.

We don't play 4-4-2. We play 4-3(2-1)-3, but we ask Suarez to play the point in the 2-1 midfield. It means Suarez has to track back more but it does mean less protection than usual. Rodgers does have to own that risk, it almost seems like he didn't do his homework against Southamption, but I don't think he would have predicted just how many balls Allen gave away.

But but I just looked at the stats and it says that Mertesacker has the 3rd best pass completion in the league and Carragher has the 5th best, both clearly ball playing maestros

This is like saying that we should not consider batting average at all because that would imply that Ganteaume is better than Bradman. Like all stats, context is needed. Someone (Carra) that passes 26 times per match is not going to be a passing maestro (even as a defender). The term 'maestro' itself needs qualifying.

 

[Uppercut]

The point re Allen is that if nothing else goes right for him, he is almost a certainty to pass at a world-class level.

Haha what. Passing at a world-class level is what Xabi Alonso and Xavi do. At best Allen passes at the level of a 2007 Michael Carrick.

 

[sledger]

I find it quite ironic how using stats is lazy in comparison to not using stats.

People like you always do. It probably explains why you make so many crap points.

 

[The Sean]

Speaking of footballing stats, the term "key pass" seems like it's being used more and more but I've never really followed up on what it refers to. Is a key pass another name for "chance creation", meaning it would get upgraded to an assist if the bloke on the end of it scored, or is it something else?

 

[The Sean]

I'd have always taken Terry ahead of him personally and to be honest he's not fit enough to play a Tournament so I could agree with leaving him out. But in that case he should have just retired rather than not retiring and having this farcical situation.

Would you have taken Terry due to Rio's fitness issues, or do you think Terry had a better footballing season than Rio last year?

 

[sledger]

Speaking of footballing stats, the term "key pass" seems like it's being used more and more but I've never really followed up on what it refers to. Is a key pass another name for "chance creation", meaning it would get upgraded to an assist if the bloke on the end of it scored, or is it something else?

They're passes that lead to goal scoring opportunities, as I understand it. Bit amiguous though, since "chance" is a bit of a difficult concept. (N.B. See also; first chance average theory).

 

[The Sean]

They're passes that lead to goal scoring opportunities, as I understand it. Bit amiguous though, since "chance" is a bit of a difficult concept. (N.B. See also; first chance average theory).

Fair enough, that's pretty much what I figured. So in the same way that a three-yard sideways ball to a bloke who then runs half the pitch, beats five defenders and scores counts as an assist, a three-yard sideways ball to a bloke who then runs half the pitch, beats five defenders and crashes a shot against the post is a "key pass"?

 

[marc71178]

Would you have taken Terry due to Rio's fitness issues, or do you think Terry had a better footballing season than Rio last year?

I've always preferred Terry to Rio at the back if it's a straight selection - better organiser IMO and Rio has always been prone to the odd switch off.

Fitness issues would be another reason, for me if a player isn't playing regularly for his club for whatever reason I can't see any justification for selecting him for a Tournament (I've also never been a fan of Ledley King for that reason)

 

[flibbertyjibber]

The only passing stats that count are the ones for assists/chances created. Though as Sean and Sledger say it is open to debate there anyway these days with the stats.

 

[sledger]

Fair enough, that's pretty much what I figured. So in the same way that a three-yard sideways ball to a bloke who then runs half the pitch, beats five defenders and scores counts as an assist, a three-yard sideways ball to a bloke who then runs half the pitch, beats five defenders and crashes a shot against the post is a "key pass"?

Yeah, that's about it.

 

[sledger]

Fitness issues would be another reason, for me if a player isn't playing regularly for his club for whatever reason I can't see any justification for selecting him for a Tournament (I've also never been a fan of Ledley King for that reason)

Haha, reminds me of Aussie repeatedly clamouring for the inclusion of Hargeaves and Owen in the World Cup 2010 squad.

 

[Uppercut]

I've always preferred Terry to Rio at the back if it's a straight selection - better organiser IMO and Rio has always been prone to the odd switch off.

Fitness issues would be another reason, for me if a player isn't playing regularly for his club for whatever reason I can't see any justification for selecting him for a Tournament (I've also never been a fan of Ledley King for that reason)

I think they actually have some semi-arbitrary way of not counting stuff like that. I'd be surprised if a three-yard pass to someone who then hits a 40-yarder miles over the bar would be counted as a key pass. But then I'm just sort of guessing.

The only passing stats that count are the ones for assists/chances created.

Nah this definitely isn't true. Possession and creativity are both important, and stats are a crude way of showing either. But I suppose I'd probably have to admit that "he's good at keeping the ball, his pass completion is 95%" is at least marginally better than "he's good at keeping the ball because I say so". Better crappy data than none.

 

[wpdavid]

I'd definitely have just told them where to go. Same manager that left him at home for the Euros in favour of a guy who racially abused his brother then spoofed that he'd picked Martin Kelly instead for 'footballing reasons'.

I'd have been more impressed if Ferdinand had said as much when selected rather than hide behind the official version. Or even said it last summer.

 

[The Sean]

I don't personally believe that's Rio's stance though. Whatever you think of him as a person or as a player, and despite the fact that he hasn't necessarily been treated by the FA and successive England managers with the respect some might feel he deserves, he does seem to genuinely love playing for England and be desperate to do as much of it as possible.

 

[marc71178]

But not so much that he's prepared to upset Sir Alex clearly.

It'd be understandable if it were a friendly but the second game is such an important one I think he should never be selected again.

 

[Pothas]

Nah this definitely isn't true. Possession and creativity are both important, and stats are a crude way of showing either. But I suppose I'd probably have to admit that "he's good at keeping the ball, his pass completion is 95%" is at least marginally better than "he's good at keeping the ball because I say so". Better crappy data than none.

I suppose this has to be true really but I always see football as the most subjective of sports, is certainly the way I like to watch and discuss it.

Not to say I don't enjoy analysis of any kind but always find team tactics and approaches an awful lot more interesting than any individual stats.

 

[Pothas]

This is like saying that we should not consider batting average at all because that would imply that Ganteaume is better than Bradman. Like all stats, context is needed. Someone (Carra) that passes 26 times per match is not going to be a passing maestro (even as a defender). The term 'maestro' itself needs qualifying.

lol qualifying. Its a flippant post on an internet forum why the **** would I need to qualify it?

If you really do insist then you could at least do it yourself when you use terms such as 'world class passer.'