***Official*** England in New Zealand series 2013

[Wright]

I would have thought we would have been good at producing openers due to the fact that until the last few years, our domestic pitches have been quite hard to bat on (in the main), but I suspect it's (in part at least) due to the fact our domestic bowlers aren't up to much.

Interesting, its been going on for at least 20 years (excluding Richardson) or so it seems to me, youd think NZC would be doing some think about it?

 

[Jezroy]

Interesting, its been going on for at least 20 years (excluding Richardson) or so it seems to me, youd think NZC would be doing some think about it?

Yes. You'd think.

 

[Wright]

Yes. You'd think.

Do you know if they work with the openers in the off season? Cranking up the bowling machine, working on leaving the ball outside of stump, defensive techniques etc or do they just leave them to there own devices?

Its a major weakness of the NZ test team and it just continues Ad nauseam.

 

[Hurricane]

Interesting, its been going on for at least 20 years (excluding Richardson) or so it seems to me, youd think NZC would be doing some think about it?

What do you want them to do?

We have youth development squads.

youngsters with talent are identified at 11 years old and put into representative teams with specialist training and training facilities.

We not only have an FC system but have an FC second XI system as well that plays games.

We have the Hawke cup for people to play a level down from FC and cut their teeth against good players.

Most provinces like Wellington also have an under 21 year old team as well to further develop young players.

I think NZC is making a major effort. Most batsman just don't want to open. It is harder - way harder than coming in at 4 or 5. Most of the best batsman all choose to bat in the middle order for their teams growing up. Where does that Tim Seifert bat? I don't think he is an opener either.

So I just think there is a dearth of quality youngsters putting up their hands to open.

ND has Yovich opening which probably says a lot.

welcome to the site btw

 

[Hurricane]

Do you know if they work with the openers in the off season? Cranking up the bowling machine, working on leaving the ball outside of stump, defensive techniques etc or do they just leave them to there own devices?

Its a major weakness of the NZ test team and it just continues Ad nauseam.

ahh - that is what you want them to do. Hopefully someone can answer you.

 

[Flem274*]

Opening the batting wasn't popular in the tween/early teen age groups when I played school cricket. Only became popular later on in high school.

One anecdote isn't true for everywhere though.

 

[Wright]

What do you want them to do?

We have youth development squads.

youngsters with talent are identified at 11 years old and put into representative teams with specialist training and training facilities.

We not only have an FC system but have an FC second XI system as well that plays games.

We have the Hawke cup for people to play a level down from FC and cut their teeth against good players.

Most provinces like Wellington also have an under 21 year old team as well to further develop young players.

I think NZC is making a major effort. Most batsman just don't want to open. It is harder - way harder than coming in at 4 or 5. Most of the best batsman all choose to bat in the middle order for their teams growing up. Where does that Tim Seifert bat? I don't think he is an opener either.

So I just think there is a dearth of quality youngsters putting up their hands to open.

ND has Yovich opening which probably says a lot.

welcome to the site btw

Well I want NZ to have openers who can at least bat time, perhaps they need to change what they are doing because its just not working.

So there has been a dearth of youngsters for the last 20 years? If Richardson can turn himself into an opener, when he wasn't the most talented player, surely others can do the same?

Thanks for the welcome.

 

[Hurricane]

This isn't really answering your question. It is just an observation about opening. I don't really think you can convert middle order players into openers easily. I think it is possible - but I think it takes a couple of seasons to get used to it.

When I used to open at club level I had many lessons I had learned over the years and I noticed people who I opened with would do the same things as me.
a) It is ok to face a maiden - don't get stressed if the first four balls are dots.
b) we were experts at leaving the ball and would have two types of leaves. The extravagant waving of the bat - shouldering arms leave and the withdrawing the bat inside the line of the ball at the last second leave to a pearler.
c) we set goals - mine were to survive the first 6 overs and then to start playing shots. Others set goals of reaching the ten over mark before they would play an expansive shot.
d) we knew our limitations and wouldn't try anything fancy.
e) we would ear mark bowlers to just see off because they were having a good day.

 

[wellAlbidarned]

No-one wants to open, it's a thankless task. You face the best bowlers with a new ball at their freshest yet still get held to the same standards as the hacks with good eyes who come in to have a swing at 5 and 6.

 

[hendrix]

No-one wants to open, it's a thankless task. You face the best bowlers with a new ball at their freshest yet still get held to the same standards as the hacks with good eyes who come in to have a swing at 5 and 6.

This.

Anecdotally, the best batsmen get to choose where they bat. If you have the choice of facing the best bowlers and a new ball or come in against the older ball and average 10 more...well, the choice is easy. The rest of the batsmen have to find a niche, and the less talented end up in the opening position.

When there's more competition for places, better batsmen will be forced to try out opening to get a spot in the team.

 

[Wright]

Interesting thoughts Hurricane.

wellAlbidarned, If you could make a living out of it, wouldnt it be worth a try? Say youre a decent 20 year old middle order player, its a log jam to get into the middle order of NZ cricket, wouldnt it be worth a try to turn yourself into a solid opener and earn a decent living if you were successful by doing it.

 

[Jezroy]

No-one wants to open, it's a thankless task. You face the best bowlers with a new ball at their freshest yet still get held to the same standards as the hacks with good eyes who come in to have a swing at 5 and 6.

Presenting Exhibit A - BJ Watling. Same guy, struggles to open, but looks like he's "turned a corner" batting down the order.

McCullum has the same idea.

 

[Jezroy]

This.

Anecdotally, the best batsmen get to choose where they bat. If you have the choice of facing the best bowlers and a new ball or come in against the older ball and average 10 more...well, the choice is easy. The rest of the batsmen have to find a niche, and the less talented end up in the opening position.

When there's more competition for places, better batsmen will be forced to try out opening to get a spot in the team.

Exhibit B - Peter Fulton, Daniel Flynn, Mark Richardson, James Marshall, Rob Nicol, even Aaron Redmond, and I think Guptill would do much better as a number 5, but there is no room for him there.

Some people already talking about Jesse opening in tests so he can get back in the team.

No.

 

[Wright]

Exhibit B - Peter Fulton, Daniel Flynn, Mark Richardson, James Marshall, Rob Nicol, even Aaron Redmond, and I think Guptill would do much better as a number 5, but there is no room for him there.

Some people already talking about Jesse opening in tests so he can get back in the team.

No.

So is there an answer to NZs opening dilemma?

Didnt bradman reverse the batting order in one test match? Crazy as it seems could we play 2 bowlers who could bat a bit as openers, then swap a bowler for a mid order batsman?

 

[Prince EWS]

I would have thought we would have been good at producing openers due to the fact that until the last few years, our domestic pitches have been quite hard to bat on (in the main)

It doesn't really work like that though, for two reasons.

Firstly, equal difficulty doesn't automatically mean the right specialist skills are developed. Facing a good domestic seamer on a green top may be as hard or even harder overall than facing a moderate Test opening bowler on a flat wicket, but they require two very different skillsets. Successful domestic openers were developing skills essentially irrelevant in Test cricket and lacking skills that were crucial for success there. It's for this reason that the best way to prepare domestic players for Test cricket is always to mirror Test conditions as much as possible; not to try and mirror the difficulty level.

Secondly, the state of the pitches made opening disproportionately harder than batting 4-6, which meant it was silly for domestic sides to actually bat their most talented players in the top order. It made a lot more sense on those tracks to protect the guns with more moderately talented players and stack the middle to lower order.

 

[Jezroy]

So is there an answer to NZs opening dilemma?

Didnt bradman reverse the batting order in one test match? Crazy as it seems could we play 2 bowlers who could bat a bit as openers, then swap a bowler for a mid order batsman?

"If at first you don't succeed, try and try again" - I'm sure at SOME point in the next 5 years or so we will have someone who can stand up to a reasonable level (hopefully Guptill can bring it around at some point).

And on your second point - I don't think so, Tim. If we end up going down that road, we may as well pick two openers who can average 20 or so, and stick with them. You would think two bowlers who can bat a bit opening would fail spectacularly. Imagine Bracewell and Southee opening against Steyn and Morkel. We'd be 5/2 and have bowlers with broken fingers.

 

[straw man]

No-one wants to open, it's a thankless task. You face the best bowlers with a new ball at their freshest yet still get held to the same standards as the hacks with good eyes who come in to have a swing at 5 and 6.

Yes, everyone wants to be a strokemaker and hit million dollar cover drives, slashing cut shots and the occasional reverse upside down sweep for six.

No one wants to be an expert at not hitting the ball, getting hit on the body, playing the leg glance and, unless you're particularly good, setting your technique up so that you won't succeed at limited overs cricket.

 

[hendrix]

Secondly, the state of the pitches made opening disproportionately harder than batting 4-6, which meant it was silly for domestic sides to actually bat their most talented players in the top order. It made a lot more sense on those tracks to protect the guns with more moderately talented players and stack the middle to lower order.

Exhibit C: lower order + tailend runs scored in the PS this season.

 

[Flem274*]

Yet despite that we still have batsmen who do it willingly at the FC level.

I think at that stage they're committed. From there they need to be worked with to ensure their techniques are perfect. The likes of Guptill would sell their children to be good test batsmen, but you wonder how much we can remodel his flaws without spending the rest of his career doing so.

Rutherford, Latham, Raval etc still have time on their hands. We need Martin Crowe, Mark Richardson etc working with them right now. I know Richardson has mentioned a couple of times he's been "speaking with" George Worker during the HRV Cup, but I bet he wasn't talking 20/20.

I also think middle order batsmen who, if we're honest, aren't ever going to be as good as Taylor, Ryder or McCullum move up the order for their provinces if there is room. Fulton and Nicol have already done this and deserve to be commended. It looks like Flynn is doing it now and I reckon someone like Neil Broom could try it too.

 

[Wright]

Yet despite that we still have batsmen who do it willingly at the FC level.

I think at that stage they're committed. From there they need to be worked with to ensure their techniques are perfect. The likes of Guptill would sell their children to be good test batsmen, but you wonder how much we can remodel his flaws without spending the rest of his career doing so.

Rutherford, Latham, Raval etc still have time on their hands. We need Martin Crowe, Mark Richardson etc working with them right now. I know Richardson has mentioned a couple of times he's been "speaking with" George Worker during the HRV Cup, but I bet he wasn't talking 20/20.

I also think middle order batsmen who, if we're honest, aren't ever going to be as good as Taylor, Ryder or McCullum move up the order for their provinces if there is room. Fulton and Nicol have already done this and deserve to be commended. It looks like Flynn is doing it now and I reckon someone like Neil Broom could try it too.

Good points Flem.

They need an openers boot camp at the start of each season (or when time was available) to work on techniques etc, with the best coaches/former batsman possible surely it wouldn't cost that much?