Geoff Armstrong- The 100 Greatest Cricketers

[fredfertang]

You can also criticise Bradman on the basis he never played a Test outside England and Australia, but the reality is there is no actual evidence to suggest that he had any weaknesses in the era in which he played so no reason to suppose he would have any now - of course there is some support for the idea that, like every batsman of that time, he had problems on difficult tracks, but even then I'm not convinced that, for once, the only real problem then was between his ears.

As an Englishman it gives me no pleasure to acknowledge the fact but Bradman was in a different league to any batsman before or since, with the possible exception of WG, but then that's another argument altogether

 

[sobers no:1]

You can also criticise Bradman on the basis he never played a Test outside England and Australia, but the reality is there is no actual evidence to suggest that he had any weaknesses in the era in which he played so no reason to suppose he would have any now - of course there is some support for the idea that, like every batsman of that time, he had problems on difficult tracks, but even then I'm not convinced that, for once, the only real problem then was between his ears.

As an Englishman it gives me no pleasure to acknowledge the fact but Bradman was in a different league to any batsman before or since, with the possible exception of WG, but then that's another argument altogether

he averaged 20 in rain affected matches
very reluctant to hit sixes (headley too)
SJS pointed out that , in past ,some experts thought hobbs was better than don , because he mastered all conditions. iirc

WG and bradman had advantage of playinga in a less competitive era. comparing them to modern greats is unfair.
bradman/wg is arguably greatest batsman/player ever. arguably.

 

[social]

WG Grace
Jack Hobbs
Don Bradman
Sachin Tendulkar
Graeme Pollock
Garry Sobers
Adam Gilchrist
Imran Khan
Malcolm Marshall
Shane Warne
Sydney Barnes

One interesting thing about this team is the lack of options for fielding in the slips as only Warne and Sobers are recognised slips fieldsmen

Can see a heap of chances going begging in the cordon when Marshall and Imran were bowling

 

[Satyanash89]

WG Grace
Jack Hobbs
Don Bradman
Sachin Tendulkar
Graeme Pollock
Garry Sobers
Adam Gilchrist
Imran Khan
Malcolm Marshall
Shane Warne
Sydney Barnes

One interesting thing about this team is the lack of options for fielding in the slips as only Warne and Sobers are recognised slips fieldsmen

Can see a heap of chances going begging in the cordon when Marshall and Imran were bowling

Tendulkar is generally a very safe slipper as well, in addition to Warne and Sobers who were unbelievably good. And really, fielding in the slips isnt AS specialized a job as you're making out. Good slips are vital to success but just because some of them arent generally in the slips doesnt mean they'll drop "a heap of chances". Anyone with a calm head can do atleast an ok job.

 

[social]

Tendulkar is generally a very safe slipper as well, in addition to Warne and Sobers who were unbelievably good. And really, fielding in the slips isnt AS specialized a job as you're making out. Good slips are vital to success but just because some of them arent generally in the slips doesnt mean they'll drop "a heap of chances". Anyone with a calm head can do atleast an ok job.

Nope

Slips is a very specialised position and if you are lining this team up to play another team of greats then one spilled chance could be all the difference that is required

 

[Satyanash89]

Nope

Slips is a very specialised position and if you are lining this team up to play another team of greats then one spilled chance could be all the difference that is required

I dont disagree but you cant change the team's composition just to accommodate a better slipper. Firmly believe that you should simply pick the best batsmen and best bowlers and pick the slip cordon from those you've already selected instead of the other way around. Thats all im saying

 

[social]

I dont disagree but you cant change the team's composition just to accommodate a better slipper. Firmly believe that you should simply pick the best batsmen and best bowlers and pick the slip cordon from those you've already selected instead of the other way around. Thats all im saying

Let's say that Marshall opens the bowling, a typical field would be 4 slips, gully, cover, wide mid on, short leg, and fine leg (as well as the bowler and wk, of course)

The problem with the team selected is that there are no stand out candidates for 4th slip, gully or short leg - all very important catching positions

Now select an X1 off the top of your head that is arguably as talented, say

Gavaskar
Barry Richards
Viv Richards
Greg Chappell
Brian Lara
Jaques Kallis
Andy Flower
Richard Hadlee
Joel Garner
Murali
Glenn McGrath

With the exceptions of Gavaskar, Murali and McGrath, every one of those guys is an absolutely brilliant fieldsman in almost any position (even these 3 were very good outfielders in their time) and, in terms of slips, the question would be who to kick out not fill a gap

 

[kyear2]

Tendulkar is generally a very safe slipper as well, in addition to Warne and Sobers who were unbelievably good. And really, fielding in the slips isnt AS specialized a job as you're making out. Good slips are vital to success but just because some of them arent generally in the slips doesnt mean they'll drop "a heap of chances". Anyone with a calm head can do atleast an ok job.

No great surprise that I massively disagree. First of all Sachin is not a very safe slip fielder, and slip fielding is a very specialised position and a even on a team with great bowlers if chances goes a begging then their effect is slightly nullified.
Just an example when Swann was dropped last year and Bell was placed in the slips and promply dropped three chances. Lillee, Mcgrath, Marshall, Steyn were as great as they were partly due to the excellent support they enjoyed in the cordon. I have hear some say that when picking a team that a captain should be the first pick, but having a great cordon is more important, especially with great quicks operating, is more important than having a great captain, which is very subjective to begin with.

That being said, I belive Pollock was a very good slipper and would form a cordon of him, Sobers and Warne would be good enough. For mine personally, Tendulkar is always the most precarious selection because I would love to include Lara or Chappell, because as batsmen they are in the same league but Chappell and Lara were just superb in the slips and Lara also adds another lefty to the lineup. But it's supposed to be a World XI and they are quite enough West Indian and Australian players in the team and Richards, Sobers and Warne are quite up to the job.

 

[kyear2]

In any event added a 10th team and a few changes. A work in progress.

Jack Hobbs
Len Hutton
Donald Bradman *
Viv Richards ^
Sachin Tendulkar
Garfield Sobers ^
Adam Gilchrist +
Imran Khan
Malcolm Marshall
Shane Warne ^
Glen Mcgrath

Sunil Gavaskar
Herbert Sutcliffe
George Headley
Brian Lara ^
Greg Chappell *^
Jacques Kallis ^
Keith Miller
Allan Knott +
Curtly Ambrose
Dennis Lillee
Muttiah Muralitharan

Gordon Greenidge ^
Barry Richards
Wally Hammond ^
Graeme Pollock
Ricky Ponting ^
Frank Worrell *
Les Ames +
Richard Hadlee
Michael Holding
Fred Trueman
Bill O’Reilly

Arthur Morris
Bobby Simpson ^
Kumar Sangakkara
Everton Weekes ^
Allan Border *
Clyde Walcott +
Ian Botham ^
Ray Lindwall
Jim Laker
Joel Garner
Sydney Barnes

Victor Trumper
Geoffrey Boycott
Rahul Dravid ^
Neil Harvey ^
Javed Miandad * ^
Aubrey Faulkner
Mike Procter
Alan Davidson
Hedley Verity
Jack Blackham +
Allan Donald

Graeme Gooch ^
Matthew Hayden ^
Rohan Kanhai ^
Kevin Pietersen
Steve Waugh *
Andy Flower +
Kapil Dev
Wasim Akram
Andy Roberts
Dale Steyn
Clarrie Grimmett

Graeme Smith ^
Vijay Merchant
Ken Barrington
Stan McCabe ^
Clive Lloyd *^
Charlie Macartney
John Waite +
Shaun Pollock
Anil Kumble
Harold Larwood
Courtney Walsh

Bruce Mitchell ^
Virender Sehwag
Denis Compton
Inzamam Ul-Haq ^
Dudley Nourse
Tony Greig ^
Farokh Engineer +
Richie Benaud *
Ian Bishop
Waqar Younis
John Snow

Conrad Hunte
Eddie Barlow ^
Ian Chappell *^
Ted Dexter
Martin Crowe ^
Shivnarine Chanderpaul
Ian Healy +
Fazal Mahmood
Alec Bedser
Colin Croft
Subhash Gupte

Bill Lawry
Mark Taylor *^
Richie Richardson ^
Peter May
Vijay Hazare
Trevor Goddard ^
Jeffrey Dujon
Maurice Tate
Bob Willis
Wes Hall
Erapali Prasanna

 

[L Trumper]

Here are his figures, and I put the spinner figures in case you think they hurt his figures. That he bowled pace for the majority of the 60s still can't offset that he isn't even as good as the average spinner in his time.

[B]Overall              AVG       SR
[/B]Sobers:             34.03     91.9
World avg:          31.18     79.8
Spinner avg:        32.71     88.9

If we go by his peak years 61-68 where he bowled as a pacer:

[B]Peak                 AVG       SR
[/B]Sobers:             27.93     76.3
World avg:          32.84     81.9
Pacer avg:          30.80     72.6

And even then, they're not that impressive for a peak. He is actually a few notches cheaper but conversely a few slower than the average pacer of his peak.

I don't really see him as having a worse record there. He is on par with every one else. And during his peak better than most. Also is there any definitive proof that he only bowled pace from 61 to 68? I don't think that was the case. Also I don't think we are actually disagreeing. My point is not about making as 3rd bowler in all-time XI. I am saying that when he played, half of his career he was a front line bowler. I am pretty sure with the exception of Gibbs, McKenzie no one bowled as much as Sobers at that time. Which indicates his worth as a bowler. He would definitely make 60s WI team on his bowling alone. And there were times he would've made into world XI on his bowling alone(61-63).

 

[smash84]

No great surprise that I massively disagree. First of all Sachin is not a very safe slip fielder, and slip fielding is a very specialised position and a even on a team with great bowlers if chances goes a begging then their effect is slightly nullified.
.

The slips may be a specialized position but I think a lot of good fielders will do well there provided they are trained for that position.

And I really can't imagine who the **** in the world would select a team with the slip cordon as the basis of selection

 

[kyear2]

Not on the basis on, but it's a consideration.

Right on cue btw.

 

[social]

The slips may be a specialized position but I think a lot of good fielders will do well there provided they are trained for that position.

And I really can't imagine who the **** in the world would select a team with the slip cordon as the basis of selection

It's part of a team's balance

Hobbs
Grace
Bradman
Barrington
Inzy
Chanderpaul
Gilchrist
Imran
Akram
McGrath
Murali

Great talents and all ATGs

Unfortunately, you would never pick this team for a match as Inzy was the only one that could catch a cold in the slips and whatever benefit he brought in the field were cancelled out by run outs and lazy running

 

[smash84]

It's part of a team's balance

Hobbs
Grace
Bradman
Barrington
Inzy
Chanderpaul
Gilchrist
Imran
Akram
McGrath
Murali

Great talents and all ATGs

Unfortunately, you would never pick this team for a match as Inzy was the only one that could catch a cold in the slips and whatever benefit he brought in the field were cancelled out by run outs and lazy running

It is a part of team balance but it isn't something that teams base their selection on. You won't pick an inferior batsman just because he is a better slip fielder. You can even have good fielders in the extras and bring them on periodically but you can't bring on 12th men as batsmen.

 

[kyear2]

But if you have two comparable players, you would take the one that is a superior slipper, same as some argue with two equal bowlers they would take the better batsman or even exclude a superior bowler for a bowling a.rounder. More than a collection of players. Team balance.

 

[social]

It is a part of team balance but it isn't something that teams base their selection on. You won't pick an inferior batsman just because he is a better slip fielder. You can even have good fielders in the extras and bring them on periodically but you can't bring on 12th men as batsmen.

Selectors base their decisions on things like this all the time and particularly when the players involved are relatively even in their chosen specialities

Bottom line, why choose player A over player B just because he happens to average 1 run more with the bat despite being a complete dud in the field?

Shouldnt happen as the latter can make that up with one stop when fielding

 

[fredfertang]

It is a part of team balance but it isn't something that teams base their selection on. You won't pick an inferior batsman just because he is a better slip fielder. You can even have good fielders in the extras and bring them on periodically but you can't bring on 12th men as batsmen.

Phil Sharpe played a few times for England in the 60s - he was nowhere near the best bat available, but was the best slipper in the country

 

[kyear2]

Carl Hooper's slip fielding also helped keep him in the team during the lean times.

 

[fredfertang]

They were all lean times for him weren't they? And he was such a good player outside the Test arena

 

[kyear2]

Sadly except for a few gems in between and after he bacame captain near the end, yes they were.