Geoff Armstrong- The 100 Greatest Cricketers

[watson]

this




Ok, so why leave out Hanif Mohammad? Probably one of the most iconic players and had an immense effect on the game.

Hanif Mohammad missed out for exactly the same reasons that Gordon Greenidge missed out.

 

[watson]

I don't like his tendency to be black and white in his judgements, at least he is not a fence sitter I suppose.



Bradman did play against Mailey on at least one occassion but when the latter had retired and he smashed him all over the park but yes he was retired.

Also Mailey and O'Reilly did not like each other. Tiger said Mailey tried to change his grip and told him to drop a catch in the slips. Mailey was still questioning O'Reilly's ability long after he was considered one of the best bowlers in the world.

Personally I have issues with the importance of S/R when applied to the 1920s for matches in Aust. since they were played to a finish there was no need to worry about time remaining in which to dismiss the opposition

I would like to read Mailey's criticism of O'Reilly to see where he was coming from. I would hazard a guess and reckon it would be along the lines of O'Reilly not being a 'real' leg-break googly bowler. That is - way too fast, no flight, no top-spin, no dip, and no deception. And all with a ridiculous grip on the ball.

Also, Mailey had a wonderful sense of humour, understood irony, and rarely took himself seriously. 'Tiger' O'Reilly took himself overly seriously, so no wonder they didn't get along. Just another case of a fanatical person not being able to understand a whimsical person.

 

[kyear2]

With regard to the Grimmett question, he had an amazing test record overal, but againts the best side of his era, he averaged 32 with a strike rate of 86 vs England. So that could possibly be the reason he is not so highly rated, but can't explain not including him at all.

 

[kyear2]

With Regard to Taylor vs Greenidge. Taylor faced only Barnes, and while Greenidge didn't face His own bowling, he did have to play Imran, Hadlee, Lillee, Thompson, Snow, Botham, Dev, Wasim ect and his average only dipped because he like Viv played on too long past their primes. Greenidge was one of Benauds top 6 openers which to me is more befitting to my boyhood idol.

 

[watson]

With regard to the Grimmett question, he had an amazing test record overal, but againts the best side of his era, he averaged 32 with a strike rate of 86 vs England. So that could possibly be the reason he is not so highly rated, but can't explain not including him at all.

Which of these spinners are you going to leave out in order to make room in the 100?

Warne
Barnes
Murali
Lohmann
O'Reilly
Rhodes
Laker
Benaud
Bedi
Chandra
Briggs
Trumble
Mailey

I think that maybe the problem is with the title. Rather than 'The 100 Greatest Cricketers' it needs to be 'The 176 Greatest Cricketers' in order to keep everyone happy.

 

[L Trumper]

Kallis in hte 8th XI and Shaun Pollock not being considered good enough for the 9th XI. Meanwhile Rahul Dravid in the 6th XI, and Andrew Flintoff in the 9th XI. If he was a CW poster, he'd be on my ignore list.

I think list was made some 6 years ago, if it was to be updated now he'd obviously readjust those positions accordingly to their achievements in the mean time..

 

[watson]

With Regard to Taylor vs Greenidge. Taylor faced only Barnes, and while Greenidge didn't face His own bowling, he did have to play Imran, Hadlee, Lillee, Thompson, Snow, Botham, Dev, Wasim ect and his average only dipped because he like Viv played on too long past their primes. Greenidge was one of Benauds top 6 openers which to me is more befitting to my boyhood idol.

Taylor also faced, and got out to;

Grimmett
Gregory
Tate
McDonald
Voce
Larwood
Wall
O'Reilly
etc

 

[social]

Dev better than Miller? Probably not.

But was Dev greater than Miller? Probably yes, for the simple reason that for several years Dev was Indian cricket. If Dev fired then India won, if he didn't then they lost or drew.

In other words, he was the Indian equivalent of Imran Khan, Richard Hadlee, Murali, or (mid-80s) Allan Border.

Incidently, I wonder how Miller would have gone if he didn't have Lindwall, Johnston, Morris or Hassett to prop him up, and therefore couldn't play his usual care-free style? Who knows, Miller may have buckled under pressure if he played in a mediocre side and had to shoulder responsibility for a change?[/QUOTE]

“Pressure is a Messerschmitt up your arse, cricket is not.”

 

[social]

Wonder how many no. 3s would be more comfortable batting behind Trumper than Gavaskar?

 

[watson]

Dev better than Miller? Probably not.

But was Dev greater than Miller? Probably yes, for the simple reason that for several years Dev was Indian cricket. If Dev fired then India won, if he didn't then they lost or drew.

In other words, he was the Indian equivalent of Imran Khan, Richard Hadlee, Murali, or (mid-80s) Allan Border.

Incidently, I wonder how Miller would have gone if he didn't have Lindwall, Johnston, Morris or Hassett to prop him up, and therefore couldn't play his usual care-free style? Who knows, Miller may have buckled under pressure if he played in a mediocre side and had to shoulder responsibility for a change?[/QUOTE]

“Pressure is a Messerschmitt up your arse, cricket is not.”

Yes, I dare say that a Nazi fighter plane in the rectal passage would be a necessarily uncomfortable experience relative to cricket.

 

[kyear2]

Not as easy as it looks, here is my stab at it:

Jack Hobbs
Len Hutton
Donald Bradman *
Viv Richards ^
Sachin Tendulkar
Garfield Sobers ^
Adam Gilchrist +
Imran Khan
Malcolm Marshall
Shane Warne ^
Glen Mcgrath

Sunil Gavaskar
Herbert Sutcliffe
George Headley
Brian Lara ^
Greg Chappell *^
Jacques Kallis ^
Keith Miller
Allan Knott +
Curtly Ambrose
Dennis Lillee
Muttiah Muralitharan

Gordon Greenidge ^
Arthur Morris
Wally Hammond ^
Graeme Pollock
Ricky Ponting ^
Frank Worrell *
Les Ames +
Richard Hadlee
Michael Holding
Fred Trueman
Bill O’Reilly

Barry Richards
Bobby Simpson ^
Kumar Sangakkara
Everton Weekes ^
Allan Border *
Clyde Walcott +
Ian Botham ^
Ray Lindwall
Jim Laker
Joel Garner
Sydney Barnes

Victor Trumper
Geoffrey Boycott
Rahul Dravid ^
Neil Harvey ^
Javed Miandad * ^
Aubrey Faulkner
Mike Procter
Alan Davidson
Hedley Verity
Jack Blackham +
Allan Donald

Graeme Gooch ^
Matthew Hayden ^
Rohan Kanhai ^
Kevin Pietersen
Steve Waugh *
Andy Flower +
Kapil Dev
Wasim Akram
Andy Roberts
Dale Steyn
Clarrie Grimmett

Graeme Smith ^
Vijay Merchant
Ken Barrington
Stan McCabe ^
Clive Lloyd *^
Charlie Macartney
John Waite +
Shaun Pollock
Anil Kumble
Harold Larwood
Courtney Walsh

Bruce Mitchell ^
Virender Sehwag
Denis Compton
Inzamam Ul-Haq ^
Dudley Nourse
Tony Greig ^
Farokh Engineer +
Richie Benaud *
Ian Bishop
Waqar Younis
John Snow

Conrad Hunte
Bill Ponsford
Ian Chappell * ^
Martin Crowe ^
Shivnarine Chanderpaul
Mushtaq Mohammad
Ian Healy +
Wes Hall
Alec Bedser
Colin Croft
Subhash Gupte

 

[Jager]

Greenidge and Morris above Barry Richards is plain wrong to me, surprising to see KP and Chanderpaul up there so highly too.

 

[Jager]

Loving your slip cordon idea though, have been using it myself. Great idea and massively agree with you on the subject, kyear.

 

[Jager]

Maybe we need to make these teams more uniform if we're going to do them like that - maybe we could think of a set way to pick a team?

1. Select the best captain, providing they can hold their place in an ATG team

Richie Benaud

2. Select the two best new ball bowlers

Alan Davidson
Malcolm Marshall

3. Select the best spinner

Shane Warne

4. Select the best wicketkeeper

Bob Taylor

5. Select the two best opening batsmen

Jack Hobbs
Barry Richards

6. Select the three best middle order batsmen available

Don Bradman
Garfield Sobers
Sachin Tendulkar

7. Select an X factor player to fill in the gap

Keith Miller

1. Jack Hobbs
2. Barry Richards
3. Don Bradman
4. Sachin Tendulkar
5. Keith Miller - 3 ^
6. Garfield Sobers ^
7. Richie Benaud* G
8. Alan Davidson - 1
9. Malcolm Marshall - 2
10. Shane Warne ^
11. Bob Taylor +

 

[MrPrez]

Kallis only making the 8th team with SRT making the first team is absolutely ridiculous.

 

[MrPrez]

Maybe we need to make these teams more uniform if we're going to do them like that - maybe we could think of a set way to pick a team?

1. Select the best captain, providing they can hold their place in an ATG team

Richie Benaud

2. Select the two best new ball bowlers

Alan Davidson
Malcolm Marshall

3. Select the best spinner

Shane Warne

4. Select the best wicketkeeper

Bob Taylor

5. Select the two best opening batsmen

Jack Hobbs
Barry Richards

6. Select the three best middle order batsmen available

Don Bradman
Garfield Sobers
Sachin Tendulkar

7. Select an X factor player to fill in the gap

Keith Miller

1. Jack Hobbs
2. Barry Richards
3. Don Bradman
4. Sachin Tendulkar
5. Keith Miller - 3 ^
6. Garfield Sobers ^
7. Richie Benaud* G
8. Alan Davidson - 1
9. Malcolm Marshall - 2
10. Shane Warne ^
11. Bob Taylor +

That's just ridiculous on so many levels.

Firstly, expecting to be able to use one formula to make a "best ever XI" is never going to work. You can use basic guidelines, but you need to be flexible.

Secondly, in an ATG team I highly disagree with captaincy being the first selection criteria. Especially when one is talking in an ATG context, where all of the players are elite players, I completely disagree that choosing the best captain is the most crucial selection choice. A good captain is crucial, but I'd easily take an elite batsman and a good captain over a good batsman and an elite captain, for example. Just in terms of overall performance of the side, the extra physical ability would easily trump the extra captaincy.

I also disagree with Davidson being the second best quick of all time but that's another story altogether.

 

[Jager]

That's just ridiculous on so many levels.

Firstly, expecting to be able to use one formula to make a "best ever XI" is never going to work. You can use basic guidelines, but you need to be flexible.

Secondly, in an ATG team I highly disagree with captaincy being the first selection criteria. Especially when one is talking in an ATG context, where all of the players are elite players, I completely disagree that choosing the best captain is the most crucial selection choice. A good captain is crucial, but I'd easily take an elite batsman and a good captain over a good batsman and an elite captain, for example. Just in terms of overall performance of the side, the extra physical ability would easily trump the extra captaincy.

I also disagree with Davidson being the second best quick of all time but that's another story altogether.

Yeah of course, just bored and wanted to see what I could come up with on the spot - my methods for choosing ATG sides are completely different.

Davidson-Procter-Marshall is my idea of a perfect attack

 

[kyear2]

Greenidge and Morris above Barry Richards is plain wrong to me, surprising to see KP and Chanderpaul up there so highly too.

Have consistently said that talent wise Procter and Richards talent wise makes my first team over Imran and Hutton, but test career wise just wasn't able to prove it.

 

[MrPrez]

To me though a world XI should be about who you would pick should you have every player ever to play a test available for selection. Not "how much they proved themselves."

 

[kyear2]

Maybe we need to make these teams more uniform if we're going to do them like that - maybe we could think of a set way to pick a team?

1. Select the best captain, providing they can hold their place in an ATG team

Richie Benaud

2. Select the two best new ball bowlers

Alan Davidson
Malcolm Marshall

3. Select the best spinner

Shane Warne

4. Select the best wicketkeeper

Bob Taylor

5. Select the two best opening batsmen

Jack Hobbs
Barry Richards

6. Select the three best middle order batsmen available

Don Bradman
Garfield Sobers
Sachin Tendulkar

7. Select an X factor player to fill in the gap

Keith Miller

1. Jack Hobbs
2. Barry Richards
3. Don Bradman
4. Sachin Tendulkar
5. Keith Miller - 3 ^
6. Garfield Sobers ^
7. Richie Benaud* G
8. Alan Davidson - 1
9. Malcolm Marshall - 2
10. Shane Warne ^
11. Bob Taylor +

Benaud himself said that Bradman was the best captain and had the best anlytical cricketing brain he has encountered, so Bradman is good enough for me as captain.
Even if I could get past your obsession with Miller, why you would bat him over one of the greatest batsmen ever is beyound me, in that lineup I would even bat him at 4 (his best position, especially if he is not bowling that much) to separate the right handers.