Is Dale Steyn the worst ever best fast bowler in the world?

[Agent Nationaux]

This debate is running out of fuel. You think player's opinion are meaningful if they have served the game and I say I don't see how that makes them any less bias. I'll just leave at that.

And yet you call someone a simpleton for it. Cheers.

 

[Red]

I consider Lillee the greatest of all time. And it's only marginal, but I consider him better than Marshall. The reason is complex, but stats don't really enter the debate. It has a lot to do with his aura and presence, which is not often discussed, but is a big factor, particularly with pace bowlers.

This is really all splitting hairs, I know, and it mostly comes down to personal preference. But in a school yard setting, if I'm the captain with first pick of all the ATG quicks, I'd take Lillee over Marshall (and everyone else) every time.

 

[Coronis]

I'd take McGrath personally, but thats just me.

 

[Jono]

It has a lot to do with his aura and presence, which is not often discussed, but is a big factor, particularly with pace bowlers.

It is tbf

 

[SJS]

I consider Lillee the greatest of all time. And it's only marginal, but I consider him better than Marshall. The reason is complex, but stats don't really enter the debate. It has a lot to do with his aura and presence, which is not often discussed, but is a big factor, particularly with pace bowlers.

This is really all splitting hairs, I know, and it mostly comes down to personal preference. But in a school yard setting, if I'm the captain with first pick of all the ATG quicks, I'd take Lillee over Marshall (and everyone else) every time.

I tend to feel about the same

 

[SJS]

By the way, why is Steyn not popular amongst young cricket fans ? I am amazed. People talk so much about old-foggies (meaning people like yours truly) never being able to appreciate the modern cricketer and infatuated with cricketers of their own youth and here is a really great fast bowler living in our times and we find it so difficult to be unreservedly appreciative and thankful for the opportunity of being able to see him perform before our own eyes.

He is a truly great bowler. . . take an old-foggy's word for it

 

[hendrix]

I never watched Marshall but his record and what I've heard others say about him and the youtube videos I've seen put him on top, for me.

Marshall>Ambrose=McGrath>the rest.

 

[Coronis]

By the way, why is Steyn not popular amongst young cricket fans ? I am amazed. People talk so much about old-foggies (meaning people like yours truly) never being able to appreciate the modern cricketer and infatuated with cricketers of their own youth and here is a really great fast bowler living in our times and we find it so difficult to be unreservedly appreciative and thankful for the opportunity of being able to see him perform before our own eyes.

He is a truly great bowler. . . take an old-foggy's word for it

I love Steyn, I don't understand why people hate on him so much.. Nostalgia, perhaps?

 

[Top_Cat]

By the way, why is Steyn not popular amongst young cricket fans ? I am amazed. People talk so much about old-foggies (meaning people like yours truly) never being able to appreciate the modern cricketer and infatuated with cricketers of their own youth and here is a really great fast bowler living in our times and we find it so difficult to be unreservedly appreciative and thankful for the opportunity of being able to see him perform before our own eyes.

He is a truly great bowler. . . take an old-foggy's word for it

Bingo.

 

[Red]

By the way, why is Steyn not popular amongst young cricket fans ? I am amazed. People talk so much about old-foggies (meaning people like yours truly) never being able to appreciate the modern cricketer and infatuated with cricketers of their own youth and here is a really great fast bowler living in our times and we find it so difficult to be unreservedly appreciative and thankful for the opportunity of being able to see him perform before our own eyes.

He is a truly great bowler. . . take an old-foggy's word for it

Sometimes you don't appreciate how good something is til it's gone. Warne is a case in point for mine. Appreciated how good he was when he played, but it's not til you can't watch him anymore that you realise how awesome he was. I often watch the 2005 Ashes DVD just for his performance.

I'd say in 15 or 20 years people will be talking about Steyn in a similar way to the way we talk about Ambrose and Donald and Trueman and Lindwall now.

 

[Red]

It is tbf

Yeh, maybe. Viv, Lillee and Warne were the cricketers (imo) that had a real aura or presence.

 

[smash84]

Yeh, maybe. Viv, Lillee and Warne were the cricketers (imo) that had a real aura or presence.

_l_

 

[Top_Cat]

Yeh, maybe. Viv, Lillee and Warne were the cricketers (imo) that had a real aura or presence.

They were heavily marketed, though.

 

[Red]

They were heavily marketed, though.

That's true, but they had the goods to start with. I imagine coming up against them would have been far more intimidating than other players.

 

[smash84]

They were heavily marketed, though.

 

[sonnench]

Just like most players, Steyn will only be regarded as one of the greats once he has been retired for a few years, and people figure out just out good he really was compared to the bowlers left over.

He imo is in the same class as Lillie, Marshall, Ambrose etc. He is the only bowler of today who is really.

 

[SJS]

Sometimes you don't appreciate how good something is til it's gone. Warne is a case in point for mine. Appreciated how good he was when he played, but it's not til you can't watch him anymore that you realise how awesome he was. I often watch the 2005 Ashes DVD just for his performance.

I'd say in 15 or 20 years people will be talking about Steyn in a similar way to the way we talk about Ambrose and Donald and Trueman and Lindwall now.

Yes I understand that to an extent but to even hint that he is the "worst" of the best fast bowlers in the world is ridiculous. He is the best of all the fast bowlers in the world today and that should be an unqualified statement from anyone who understands the game. I can not understand being less than fully appreciative of a great bowler like Steyn, now closer to the end of his great career than his peak and at the same time gush over Philander and rate him higher when that bowler, howsoever "great" he turns out to be, is just in the infancy of his.

Their is dichotomy here that goes far beyond what you are saying and which I appreciate as a general comment, but I think there is more to it. People wrote of Lillee before he had retired as Trueman wrote in 1983

"unquestionably one of the all-time greats. . . He is the last of what I would describe as the classic fast bowlers . . . which I would willingly watch all day. a fine running action worthy of an Olympic athlete . . . couple with balance, rhythm, fire in the belly, stamina and big heart and you are close to greatness. His action and timing cannot be bettered."​

Bailey writing at the same time wrote . . .

Dennis is the complete fast bowler who has gone on harvesting wickets long after he lost his fearsome pace. He is the Mohammad Ali of cricket, an artist . . . His long, spectacular approach, glorious body action and sheer speed combined with his highly volatile temrament to make him the most exciting fast bowler, ever, to visit these shores since Ray Lindwall . . .There was drama whenever Lillee bowled because he was sufficiently fast to beat good players . . . by sheer speed through the air. His bouncer came close to being lethal, while his yorker, especially at the start of the innings, frequently was . . .

How did Dennis Lillee compare with Lindwall? Although Rodney Marsh claimed that he did not bowl an outstanding yorker, something which Lindwall certainly posessed, and was noticeably less effective against left-handers, I am inclined to believe that in all conditions he was possibly even more formidable (than Lindwall) because his action was steeper though not with the new ball, which ray used to swing more. Ray, despite having a good command of the vernacular, never engaged in verbal abuse, which became an accepted part of the Lillee scene . . . Fast bowlers have always been an aggressive breed, and Dennis Lillee was unquestionably both one of the most aggressive and one of the greatest. He did not merely dislike opposing batsmen, he regarded them as Generl Sherman regarded Red Indians, "the only good Injun is a dead Injun" . . . Not that there was anything new about his attitude and his hatred for batsmen.​

I quote these two England fast bowlers not just to show that people called contemprary cricketers all time greats, as Sir Len Hutton famously called Gavaskar in a remarkably laudatory piece right during Sunny's career itself but to point out how greatness is recognised. Just read those two quotes on Lillee - and I can put so many others about Lillee and others like this - where there is no reference to statistics when ranking a player amongst the game's all time greats. Not just that, the nuanced explanation of how and why they rated a player as great are very interesting and cricket fans should learn from these on how to appreciate great cricket and great players.

These are not cliched terms that Trueman and Bailey use but very precise observations on a great bowler, his art and his attitude to his craft. Fans need to inculcate this not so that they change their views on who is greater but to understand why their heroes were great - over and above the rudimentary and dry evidence of stats.

 

[doesitmatter]

Not that I care but no way does Ambrose beat out Warne in these sort of lists. In fact I have never read about Ambrose being all that great to watch from many people. He is more like Mcgrath.

Tbh I think Warne would top the 90's list actually.

If you ask players from England and South Africa because of the obvious weakness against him they might say Warne and even that i am not sure but players from other countries it will be Ambrose with a big margin..Yes its not the stats after-all..

 

[NasserFan207]

Warne and Ambrose both feasted on some pretty trash England batting tbh. Not sure which was more hilarious viewing, Warne to Stewart or Ambrose to Atherton. Clearly overrated the pair of 'em

 

[Arachnodouche]

The most significant development in Steyn's arsenal is the one that jags back in off the seam. He doesn't quite have an inswinger yet, not one I've noticed with any regularity anyway. But if he can throw in that in ducker with the kind of consistency he shows for his stock ball, he'd be close to unplayable when on song.