smash84
The Tiger King
To appease Kyear you need to kick Murali and botham out of there dude. also Bob Simpson isn't what Kyear would put
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The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread
- Thread starter Red
- Start date
Prince EWS
Global Moderator
You know, that's a great question. Like you I find slips catching to be an under-rated specialist art and I always take it into account when trying to pick current sides, but given I never saw most of the blokes I try to pick in these teams field, it's not something I can factor into all time teams as much as I'd like. It's something that I need to do some more research on - where the greats of the past fielded and their competency - before I can actually be happy with my side.
SJS
Hall of Fame Member
Well there is Benaud who at gully is amongst the all time greats. . . but yes you need more
kyear2
International Coach
Would like to clarify the process that I go about selecting my ALL TIME XI.
The automatic selections are the five players choosen as the Wisden Cricketers of the Century, so to start we have
01) Jack Hobbs
02)
03) Don Bradman
04)Viv Richards
05)
06) Garry Sobers
07)
08)
09)
10) Shane Warne
11)
The players that comes closest to usurping one of those players is Muttiah Muralitharan, but Shane's home and away record was more even and with his batting and slip fielding brings more to the table.
The next two slots that I fill are to include the two players that I would have included in my to five players of the Century, Adam Gilchrist, who forever changed how we evaluate the wicket keeper position, who was stellar with the gloves to Warne and Mcgrath ect and was a destructive and effective force with the bat and was one of the main reasons Australia was one of the best teams in test history and Malcolm Marshall. Marshall is arguably the greatest fast bowler in history and the main force behind the great W.I teams from '83 to his retirement. He was devastatingly fast, could swing the ball both directions and had a deadley bouncer. He never lost a test series and as a opening bowler only lost four test matches.
So we have thus far:
01) Sir Jack Hobbs
02)
03) Sir Donald Bradman
04) Sir I.V.A. Richards
05)
06) Sir Garfield Sobers
07) Adam Gilchrist
08)
09) Malcolm Marshall
10) Shane Warne
11)
My next selections are Glenn Mcgrath and Sachin Tendulkar, two players who through excellent technique and amazing longevity of tremendous performances make them near certain inclusions.. The two closest contenders for Mcgrath's slot were Curtly Ambrose and Denis Lillee. Mcgrath gets it over Lillee because of his complete resume and excellent performances everywhere in the cricketing world. He pips Ambrose because of his more maintained agression where Ambrose in attack mode was more dangerous, he also went into a more defensive run saving mode and his over all strike rate suffered as a result, but that too may also have been caused by contrasting team positions and needs and Mcgrath had better run support and ability to consistently attack, either way Mcgrath too was a catalyst of one of the greatest teams ever and takes the slot and his partnership with Warne is also a major plus. Tendulkar's competition came from his comtempory Brian Lara and also from Greg Chappell and George Headley. Tendulkar wins the contest over B.C. because of his consistency and longevity, as while Lara had higher heights, Sachin was more consistent and reliable and out lasted the prince of Trinidad. Chappell brings more to the team with his slip fileding and handy bowling and Headley was just as good a batsman and a master in a crisis, but Sachin's overall numbers and massive run and century totals are just too much to ignore and the team is already well serviced in the cordon by Richards, Sobers and Warne, and though Chappell, Lara or Wally Hammond would have made the cordon even better a World XI should be represented by as many nations as possible without compromising the quality of the team.
01) Sir Jack Hobbs
02)
03) Sir Donald Bradman
04) Sir I.V.A. Richards
05) Sachin Tendulkar
06) Sir Garfield Sobers
07) Adam Gilchrist
08)
09) Malcolm Marshall
10) Shane Warne
11) Glenn Mcgrath
The last two are the most difficult, to open with Hobbs are contenders Len Hutton, Herbert Sutcliffe and Sunil Gavskar. All three have their benefits, Sutcliffe for his partnership with Hobbs, but his scoring rate is the lowest of all selected and the level of bolwers faced are not as good as the other contenders. Between Hutton and Gavaskar, Hutton had to overcome the most to remain succesful, the break of the war, the devastating injury during the war and he faced and was succesful againts the better bowlers, O'Reilly, Grimmett, Ramadin and Valentine and Lindwall and Miller utilising a new ball every 55 overs. As a result Gavaskar just misses out despite a stellar resume of his own and facing some of the greatest of attacks as well, but his record was also boosted by some weaker bowling during WSC and the WI attack before the four pronged pace attack. Barry Richards also featured in the process and his first class and WSC record are just fantastic and his slip fielding again would have been a bonus, but one test series is just not enough eveidence to superceed Hutton in this instance. The last slot is for the bowling All Rounder and it's shortlist is made up of the the usual suspects Imaran Khan and Keith Miller and also Mike Procter. For Procter like B. Richards earlier, his 7 tests are not enough to be considered for this honour, but once again his first class and WSC records are fantstic and if a side was to be picked to actually play a game againts the Martians he and Barry Richards would both have to be selected. His batting, bowling and slip fielding potential was that good and matched only by a very few in the history of the game. Imran has to nip it over Miller as he was the better bowler and batting at 8, Miller's batting would be of lesser consequence and Imran was probably the best ever old ball bowler (along with Akram) utilising his reverse swing and pace, he was also an inspirational captain and the only one to run the W.I close during their glory years.
The final 11
Sir Jack Hobbs
Sir Len Hutton
Sir Donald Bradman *
Sir IVA Richards ^
Sachin Tendulkar
Sir Garfield Sobers ^(5)
Adam Gilchrist +
Imran Khan (3)
Malcolm Marshall (1)
Shane Warne ^(4)
Glenn Mcgrath (2)
The team has everything, batting depth to #10, a good allround fielding team with just one exception and a very good cordon. On the flip side the team could use another left hander in the middle order/opener and the cordon could be a bit better, Lara could fix both problems and Chappell or Hammond could fix the latter, or even Procter or Miller, but Sachin and Imran throughly earned their places and the Sub Continent deserves to be represented in a true AT XI. Again Mcgrath is the only rabbit in the team, but that is not his job and if this team is relying on the No. 11, then they are already in trouble.
The automatic selections are the five players choosen as the Wisden Cricketers of the Century, so to start we have
01) Jack Hobbs
02)
03) Don Bradman
04)Viv Richards
05)
06) Garry Sobers
07)
08)
09)
10) Shane Warne
11)
The players that comes closest to usurping one of those players is Muttiah Muralitharan, but Shane's home and away record was more even and with his batting and slip fielding brings more to the table.
The next two slots that I fill are to include the two players that I would have included in my to five players of the Century, Adam Gilchrist, who forever changed how we evaluate the wicket keeper position, who was stellar with the gloves to Warne and Mcgrath ect and was a destructive and effective force with the bat and was one of the main reasons Australia was one of the best teams in test history and Malcolm Marshall. Marshall is arguably the greatest fast bowler in history and the main force behind the great W.I teams from '83 to his retirement. He was devastatingly fast, could swing the ball both directions and had a deadley bouncer. He never lost a test series and as a opening bowler only lost four test matches.
So we have thus far:
01) Sir Jack Hobbs
02)
03) Sir Donald Bradman
04) Sir I.V.A. Richards
05)
06) Sir Garfield Sobers
07) Adam Gilchrist
08)
09) Malcolm Marshall
10) Shane Warne
11)
My next selections are Glenn Mcgrath and Sachin Tendulkar, two players who through excellent technique and amazing longevity of tremendous performances make them near certain inclusions.. The two closest contenders for Mcgrath's slot were Curtly Ambrose and Denis Lillee. Mcgrath gets it over Lillee because of his complete resume and excellent performances everywhere in the cricketing world. He pips Ambrose because of his more maintained agression where Ambrose in attack mode was more dangerous, he also went into a more defensive run saving mode and his over all strike rate suffered as a result, but that too may also have been caused by contrasting team positions and needs and Mcgrath had better run support and ability to consistently attack, either way Mcgrath too was a catalyst of one of the greatest teams ever and takes the slot and his partnership with Warne is also a major plus. Tendulkar's competition came from his comtempory Brian Lara and also from Greg Chappell and George Headley. Tendulkar wins the contest over B.C. because of his consistency and longevity, as while Lara had higher heights, Sachin was more consistent and reliable and out lasted the prince of Trinidad. Chappell brings more to the team with his slip fileding and handy bowling and Headley was just as good a batsman and a master in a crisis, but Sachin's overall numbers and massive run and century totals are just too much to ignore and the team is already well serviced in the cordon by Richards, Sobers and Warne, and though Chappell, Lara or Wally Hammond would have made the cordon even better a World XI should be represented by as many nations as possible without compromising the quality of the team.
01) Sir Jack Hobbs
02)
03) Sir Donald Bradman
04) Sir I.V.A. Richards
05) Sachin Tendulkar
06) Sir Garfield Sobers
07) Adam Gilchrist
08)
09) Malcolm Marshall
10) Shane Warne
11) Glenn Mcgrath
The last two are the most difficult, to open with Hobbs are contenders Len Hutton, Herbert Sutcliffe and Sunil Gavskar. All three have their benefits, Sutcliffe for his partnership with Hobbs, but his scoring rate is the lowest of all selected and the level of bolwers faced are not as good as the other contenders. Between Hutton and Gavaskar, Hutton had to overcome the most to remain succesful, the break of the war, the devastating injury during the war and he faced and was succesful againts the better bowlers, O'Reilly, Grimmett, Ramadin and Valentine and Lindwall and Miller utilising a new ball every 55 overs. As a result Gavaskar just misses out despite a stellar resume of his own and facing some of the greatest of attacks as well, but his record was also boosted by some weaker bowling during WSC and the WI attack before the four pronged pace attack. Barry Richards also featured in the process and his first class and WSC record are just fantastic and his slip fielding again would have been a bonus, but one test series is just not enough eveidence to superceed Hutton in this instance. The last slot is for the bowling All Rounder and it's shortlist is made up of the the usual suspects Imaran Khan and Keith Miller and also Mike Procter. For Procter like B. Richards earlier, his 7 tests are not enough to be considered for this honour, but once again his first class and WSC records are fantstic and if a side was to be picked to actually play a game againts the Martians he and Barry Richards would both have to be selected. His batting, bowling and slip fielding potential was that good and matched only by a very few in the history of the game. Imran has to nip it over Miller as he was the better bowler and batting at 8, Miller's batting would be of lesser consequence and Imran was probably the best ever old ball bowler (along with Akram) utilising his reverse swing and pace, he was also an inspirational captain and the only one to run the W.I close during their glory years.
The final 11
Sir Jack Hobbs
Sir Len Hutton
Sir Donald Bradman *
Sir IVA Richards ^
Sachin Tendulkar
Sir Garfield Sobers ^(5)
Adam Gilchrist +
Imran Khan (3)
Malcolm Marshall (1)
Shane Warne ^(4)
Glenn Mcgrath (2)
The team has everything, batting depth to #10, a good allround fielding team with just one exception and a very good cordon. On the flip side the team could use another left hander in the middle order/opener and the cordon could be a bit better, Lara could fix both problems and Chappell or Hammond could fix the latter, or even Procter or Miller, but Sachin and Imran throughly earned their places and the Sub Continent deserves to be represented in a true AT XI. Again Mcgrath is the only rabbit in the team, but that is not his job and if this team is relying on the No. 11, then they are already in trouble.
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L Trumper
State Regular
You can't miss Sobers, go with Richards batting at 3 and Sobers can bat at 5 and be 3rd slip. Hobbs is arguably the best at covers. Bland can go to point. I think Don also considered to be a brilliant fielder.
watson
Banned
I can't fault any of your logic kyear.Those people with an artistic or nostalgic temperment might find it a bit distasteful, but it's still beautifully put in its own way.
Red
The normal awards that everyone else has
I think (from what I've read) Bradman was a decent cover field, but maybe not an out and out great fieldsman (although it's hard to imagine him not having amazing reflexes etc).
Hammond was a great slipper as well. Jack Gregory (according to Bradman) was an outstanding slip fieldsman.
Other guys who were great fieldsman (off the top of my head)...
Mark Taylor (slips)
Mark Waugh (great in slip, but also great anywhere)
Jonty
Andrew Symonds
Neil Harvey
Clive Lloyd
AB DeVilliers
Lara
Ian Chappell
Joel Garner (great in the gully)
Roger Harper
I'm sure there are heaps of others.
kyear2
International Coach
Thanks Watson.
watson
Banned
For what it's worth, here's my take......
SF Barnes was judged to be the best and greatest of all bowlers for about 30 years up until Bill O'Reilly came along to challenge his status. And even then the belief that SF Barnes was the pinnacle of his trade managed to exist well into the 1950s. The point being that no other bowler has been judged to be so great, by so many, for so long.
That being the case, I have trouble leaving SF Barnes (these days) out of my ATG team. However, I also believe that an ATG team must have 3 top class fast bowlers in order to knock over an opposing top class batting line-up. Hence;
01. Len Hutton
02. Sunil Gavaskar
03. Don Bradman
04. Viv Richards
05. Keith Miller
06. Gary Sobers
07. Adam Gilchrist
08. Malcolm Marshall
09. Shane Warne
10. Dennis Lillee
11. SF Barnes
Miller gets his spot over Imran, Procter, Botham, Dev and Hadlee because he is required to bat in the top 6 but still take 5fers. I don't think that any other of those candidates listed is skillfull enough with the bat to hold down a top 6 spot on merit.
I also believe that Hutton and Gavaskar are better batsman than Hobbs because they have equivalent averages (near enough) yet faced significantly better bowlers over an extended period of time.
Lillee gains his spot because too many experts who saw him play in the SAME ERA as Holding, Roberts, Garner, Marshall, Hadlee, and Imran rank Lillee as their superior. The opinion of so many contemporaries during the greatest period of fast-bowling in the history of cricket cannot be ignored.
However, having just said all that, I still have a nagging feeling that kyear's team would beat my team in a 5 Test series, although I don't know why.
SF Barnes was judged to be the best and greatest of all bowlers for about 30 years up until Bill O'Reilly came along to challenge his status. And even then the belief that SF Barnes was the pinnacle of his trade managed to exist well into the 1950s. The point being that no other bowler has been judged to be so great, by so many, for so long.
That being the case, I have trouble leaving SF Barnes (these days) out of my ATG team. However, I also believe that an ATG team must have 3 top class fast bowlers in order to knock over an opposing top class batting line-up. Hence;
01. Len Hutton
02. Sunil Gavaskar
03. Don Bradman
04. Viv Richards
05. Keith Miller
06. Gary Sobers
07. Adam Gilchrist
08. Malcolm Marshall
09. Shane Warne
10. Dennis Lillee
11. SF Barnes
Miller gets his spot over Imran, Procter, Botham, Dev and Hadlee because he is required to bat in the top 6 but still take 5fers. I don't think that any other of those candidates listed is skillfull enough with the bat to hold down a top 6 spot on merit.
I also believe that Hutton and Gavaskar are better batsman than Hobbs because they have equivalent averages (near enough) yet faced significantly better bowlers over an extended period of time.
Lillee gains his spot because too many experts who saw him play in the SAME ERA as Holding, Roberts, Garner, Marshall, Hadlee, and Imran rank Lillee as their superior. The opinion of so many contemporaries during the greatest period of fast-bowling in the history of cricket cannot be ignored.
However, having just said all that, I still have a nagging feeling that kyear's team would beat my team in a 5 Test series, although I don't know why.
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akilana
International 12th Man
Didn't play enough
watson
Banned
A FC career that went from 1927 to 1954 is more than long enough. 103 FC games incorporating 33 centuries, and 22 Tests incorporating 10 centuries is not overly comprehensive, but it's still plenty good enough to make a reasonable judgement about Headley's abilities. He is a worthy contender for that ATG No.3 spot
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kyear2
International Coach
Played 19 tests over 10 years before the War at an average close to 70, all backed up the third highest first class average in th history of the game, and those were games primarily played while on tour or againts near test strength British touring sides. Unlike Pollock his career wasn't over a five year period of arguably his prime againts select opposition, but againts only the top two teams of his era and spread over a decade mostly spent in test cricket isolation, yet he maintained his form on an icedibly weak team and batting line up where he was the sole difference between victory and defeat. That is the pressure he endured for his entire playing career and he shined.
He played plenty and our Greatest Batsman.
He played plenty and our Greatest Batsman.
Bradman-less XI
1. Jack Hobbs
2. Len Hutton
3. Charles Macartney (6)
4. Sachin Tendulkar
5. Viv Richards
6. Garfield Sobers (5)
7. Adam Gilchrist
8. Imran Khan (3)
9. Malcolm Marshall (2)
10. Harold Larwood (1)
11. Bill O'Reilly (4)
(SF Barnes 12th)
I've slotted Macartney in there for a couple of reasons - firstly, his quality is not represented in his career average. At number three after the war, he averaged 71 (mostly in England).
Additionally, he was dynamic - a quality I want from my number three, considering he's following Hobbs and Hutton. Yes, Richards could provide this, but why not have both? Richards drops to 5 so as to slot Tendulkar in between them, in the 'Roebuck Role' as I now call it.
And as an added bonus, Macartney could chip in with some more-than-handy left arm spin, balancing the right arm quick legspin of O'Reilly. He could field, too.
So I'd have Sobers at first, Tendulkar at second, Richards at third. I'm not sure where Hutton generally fielded, so either him or Hobbs in the gully.
watson
Banned
A post WWI Macartney is an inspired choice, but it does seem a shame to leave out Brian Lara or Graeme Pollock who were also dynamic.
