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***Official*** England in India

Prince EWS

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
8ankitj said:
I have never quite understood if playing lower down the order is supposed to help your average or reduce it? :) I mean here you are implying that 36 at that position is worth more while for someone like Dhoni, 50+ average is explained away as a result of not outs he gets while batting down the order.
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I think it depends on what sort of lower middle order player you are, tbf. The likes of Bevan and Dhoni are genuine finishers, and they looked to shepherd the innings to completion; that leads to a lot of not outs and can result in an average a little higher than one's actual value in those innings. Lower middle order players like Raina and Cairns have different roles, to really accelerate around the genuine finishers and look for boundaries. The averages of those players are probably a little lower than their actual value because they throw their wickets away at times.
 
Cevno

Cevno

Hall of Fame Member
shankar said:
Despite being dead against Rohit's inclusion at the start of the match, have to say that the selectors were right in sticking with him. Not because he scored runs, anybody can do that given enough chances, but the way he made them. It is a big gamble to give him yet more chances, but one that has to be taken because the possible payoff is huge.
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Far from convinced reg him as a opener. He has made these runs before and then followed it up with a whole year of failures.

He has all the talent, but ODI is probably not his game right now tbh and he isn't a opener.
 
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vic_orthdox

vic_orthdox

Global Moderator
Viscount Tom said:
Sky guys pointing out something we all know, that Finn hitting the stumps with his knee isn't a distraction.
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As I said back in the SA series, I'd be letting it go the first and maybe second time he does it, but when it was happening as regularly as it was back then, it is a distraction in itself, because once it has happened a few times, you know what is going on and it attracts your attention even further.
 
S

shankar

International Debutant
Cevno said:
Far from convinced reg him as a opener. He has made these runs before and then followed it up with a whole year of failures.

He has all the talent, but ODI is probably not his game right now tbh and he isn't a opener.
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Oh of course he needs to do a lot lot more. I'm just saying, that it becomes obvious why he's being given chance after chance when, on the odd occasions, we do see him playing fluently.

I agree he needs to be tried out in Yuvraj's spot in tests. But why would you say he's not suited for the opening spot (in ODIs i.e.)?
 
Spark

Spark

Global Moderator
Viscount Tom said:
Sky guys pointing out something we all know, that Finn hitting the stumps with his knee isn't a distraction.
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This would've been a fair argument six months or so ago, when it first appeared as a problem, but he's had plenty of time since then to go and fix it so no sympathy from me.
 
theegyptian

theegyptian

International Vice-Captain
Contra said:
Eoin Morgan is another good finisher, but his stats are buffed up by playing against associate teams when he was with Ireland.
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I know you were only using Morgan as a throwaway example but it isn't really factually true.

Morgan for England 40.74 @ sr 91.14
Morgan for Ireland 35.42 @ sr 71.67

Morgan started playing for Ireland from an early age and batted in the top 4.
 
ankitj

ankitj

Hall of Fame Member
Prince EWS said:
I think it depends on what sort of lower middle order player you are, tbf. The likes of Bevan and Dhoni are genuine finishers, and they looked to shepherd the innings to completion; that leads to a lot of not outs and can result in an average a little higher than one's actual value in those innings. Lower middle order players like Raina and Cairns have different roles, to really accelerate around the genuine finishers and look for boundaries. The averages of those players are probably a little lower than their actual value because they throw their wickets away at times.
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I think a batsman gets an average he deserves, where he bats and what role he performs doesn't matter. Only thing with which batting average can have trade offs is Strike Rate. In the scenario that you mention, if the two batsmen are equally valuable, one will have better average, other will have better SR. If despite seemingly playing those two different roles, one batsman has better average as well as SR, he is most likely the superior batsman.
 
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stumpski

stumpski

International Captain
I imagine that not that many here from the UK are going to be up at 3 a.m. on Sunday to watch a dead game. I might catch the end of the first innings.

Not surprised to see most here putting the boot into Dernbach (he was better in his last spell, but the match had gone by then) although Bresnan and Patel were just as expensive yesterday and neither should think themselves guaranteed a place. We don't have an Ealham-type player anymore do we, a steady medium-pacer who can bowl 10 overs for under 40 while contributing at 7 or 8. Bresnan I suppose comes nearest; Woakes doesn't really fit the bill, neither does Wright. Buttler as keeper isn't ideal either - he's only Somerset's reserve one-day keeper - though they may as well stick with it for the last game.
 
marc71178

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
Difference is that Bresnan was tight early up (at a time when Dernbach had previously bowled expensive ****e) and then Dernbach came on when the fielding restrictions were at their best for bowlers and conceded a shed-load. That he bowled a couple of cheap overs at the end after the match was over shouldn't cloud the fact that he was tripe when it mattered.

Patel is also in the team for more than just his bowling.
 
grecian

grecian

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
stumpski said:
I imagine that not that many here from the UK are going to be up at 3 a.m. on Sunday to watch a dead game. I might catch the end of the first innings.

Not surprised to see most here putting the boot into Dernbach (he was better in his last spell, but the match had gone by then) although Bresnan and Patel were just as expensive yesterday and neither should think themselves guaranteed a place. We don't have an Ealham-type player anymore do we, a steady medium-pacer who can bowl 10 overs for under 40 while contributing at 7 or 8. Bresnan I suppose comes nearest; Woakes doesn't really fit the bill, neither does Wright. Buttler as keeper isn't ideal either - he's only Somerset's reserve one-day keeper - though they may as well stick with it for the last game.
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We have plenty of Ealham types, but they'd just be slaughtered in modern cricket. Ealham was hopeless away as it was.
 
Cevno

Cevno

Hall of Fame Member
Haha was -1 degrees there in the night yesterday. KP tweeted about his feet falling off or something.

Seems to have cleared off in the day though -

 
vic_orthdox

vic_orthdox

Global Moderator
8ankitj said:
I think a batsman gets an average he deserves, where he bats and what role he performs doesn't matter. Only thing with which batting average can have trade offs is Strike Rate. In the scenario that you mention, if the two batsmen are equally valuable, one will have better average, other will have better SR. If despite seemingly playing those two different roles, one batsman has better average as well as SR, he is most likely the superior batsman.
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Not necessarily, because a guy might have to go from the start to allow Dhoni/Bevan/Hussey to play themselves in with singles, and not let the pressure build up too much; and those guys who have the role of seeing the game through get the chance to make up for their slower start, whilst others have to make the running, getting out early, so can end up with the same strike rate!
 
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