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***Official*** Australia in India 2012/13

oldmancraigy

U19 12th Man
With Beer out, you've gotta give the slot to O'Keefe IMO. Better to have a mediocre second spinner who can bat than a mediocre second spinner who can't.
What exactly is it that makes O'Keefe 'mediocre' in comparison to any of the other spinners in the country? He's the only one of them to average under 30 at first class level - and in fact all of the others are either very close to 40, or over it.

Warner
Watson
Hughes
Clarke
DHussey
Wade
Maxwell
O'Keefe
Pattinson
Starc
Siddle

Johnson
Bird
Haddin
?Khawaja or Lyon?

I really can't see why we'd bother persisting with Cowan, a "batsman" who can't score runs. Khawaja is the future, but given the inexperience of the team I think we need to get someone in who is well versed to face the conditions in England. Dave Hussey fills that void, and can roll his arm over as well.
Watson is back opening where he averages 40+, makes sense to me....
Maxwell is in just because he can bat a bit. His off-spin is "handy", and frankly there's a struck match between his bowling and Lyons. Maxwell has 7 shield wickets at 25 this season. Either he or Dave Hussey have to be able to 'grind out' some overs and either will pose as much threat as Lyon.

The quicks are tough to pick. Siddle is a line and length workhorse and so is probably worth a shot. It's either him or Bird for that final position - I'd worry that the conditions won't suit Bird's swing?
Starc is a lock since he has the ability to produce a "wicket ball" out of nowhere, and that's one way for a quick to get a wicket on a dud pitch.
Pattinson just has that sheer pace to threaten in new ball spells, and can rough up their bowlers. Class act and simply has to play.


It's just so hard to win in India that I'd go for a deep deep batting lineup like this with 3 spin options to make the most of lifeless pitches.

I know there is buckleys that a squad like this would get chosen, there seems to be a foolish fascination with underperformers, but we need to bite the bullet and move on eventually. Debuting 3 guys isn't ideal, and if people wanted to argue for selecting Lyon and leaving Maxwell home I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. I just can't see the point in a non-penetrating spinner (Lyon) who can't do anything else. Maxwell is more dangerous at first class level, I can't see why he wouldn't be at test level too? And again, he gives us that extra batting to compensate on the dodgy pitches!!
 

Spark

Global Moderator
Dave Hussey fills that void, and can roll his arm over as well.
no no no no no no

O'Keefe in first XI

?Khawaja or Lyon?
no no no no no no

Maxwell is more dangerous at first class level
no no no no no no

Either he or Dave Hussey have to be able to 'grind out' some overs and either will pose as much threat as Lyon.
no no no no no no

My brain feels ****ed enough without this adding to it.
 

iamdavid

International Debutant
I'd bring Dave Hussey in for his brother, in spite of his age and poor Shield numbers this year. His game is suited to Indian wickets, he's a far more accomplished player of spin than the alternatives, he'd go some way to filling the experience void and I don't think he 'd be any less effective with the ball than Smith or Maxwell.

I also wouldn't be rushing to get Pattinson in the squad. Indian wickets won't suit him, no point risking his fitness for England where he'll be a far more valuable commodity.
 

vic_orthdox

Global Moderator
Hussey is a wonderful player of mediocre spin; I'm just not sure of him against the best stuff.

Mind you, I'd probably back him against Ojha and Ashwin to do OK.
 

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
What exactly is it that makes O'Keefe 'mediocre' in comparison to any of the other spinners in the country? He's the only one of them to average under 30 at first class level - and in fact all of the others are either very close to 40, or over it.

Warner
Watson
Hughes
Clarke
DHussey
Wade
Maxwell
O'Keefe
Pattinson
Starc
Siddle

Johnson
Bird
Haddin
?Khawaja or Lyon?

I really can't see why we'd bother persisting with Cowan, a "batsman" who can't score runs. Khawaja is the future, but given the inexperience of the team I think we need to get someone in who is well versed to face the conditions in England. Dave Hussey fills that void, and can roll his arm over as well.
Watson is back opening where he averages 40+, makes sense to me....
Maxwell is in just because he can bat a bit. His off-spin is "handy", and frankly there's a struck match between his bowling and Lyons. Maxwell has 7 shield wickets at 25 this season. Either he or Dave Hussey have to be able to 'grind out' some overs and either will pose as much threat as Lyon.

The quicks are tough to pick. Siddle is a line and length workhorse and so is probably worth a shot. It's either him or Bird for that final position - I'd worry that the conditions won't suit Bird's swing?
Starc is a lock since he has the ability to produce a "wicket ball" out of nowhere, and that's one way for a quick to get a wicket on a dud pitch.
Pattinson just has that sheer pace to threaten in new ball spells, and can rough up their bowlers. Class act and simply has to play.


It's just so hard to win in India that I'd go for a deep deep batting lineup like this with 3 spin options to make the most of lifeless pitches.

I know there is buckleys that a squad like this would get chosen, there seems to be a foolish fascination with underperformers, but we need to bite the bullet and move on eventually. Debuting 3 guys isn't ideal, and if people wanted to argue for selecting Lyon and leaving Maxwell home I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. I just can't see the point in a non-penetrating spinner (Lyon) who can't do anything else. Maxwell is more dangerous at first class level, I can't see why he wouldn't be at test level too? And again, he gives us that extra batting to compensate on the dodgy pitches!!
I like O'Keefe, but people have been falling into the trap with his average for ages. I'm sure every other First Class spinner in the country would've absolutely loved to have their career figures boosted by this match on what was probably the most spin-friendly pitch served up for a First Class fixture in my lifetime. It was an absolute bunsen by all reports and Senanayake and O'Keefe combining for 15 wickets in the first innings backs that up. No doubt that you have to bowl well to take 7/35 but the other bowlers didn't get that opportunity on that wicket, and he still didn't do anything in the second innings.

He averages ~ 31 in the Sheffield Shield, which is still a very good average for a spinner in Australian conditions, but he's still very much an Australian conditions spinner in that he's just a tight stock bowler more than anything else. If the pitch is favouring spin and you need him to be a strike bowler he's not going to be able to do it for you unless it's favouring spin to the absurd degree the pitch for the match I linked above was and, again, by all reports it's something we'd never see an international level.

Last season O'Keefe took 9 wickets in 7 games at an average of 52; he was comfortably outbowled by the likes of Beer (26 wickets @ 26), Doherty (19w @ 26), Boyce (20w @ 34). Even part-timers Katich (10w @ 20) and Maxwell (16w @ 29) managed to not only average better than him but take more wickets in substantially fewer overs. His form has been better again this season, and an argument could be made to suggest that he's actually the best man for the Test XI at home if Watson's bowling because he plays the support role better, but in India you definitely need a spinner more capable of taking genuine wickets (and Watson isn't bowling anyway).

On your point about Shield average with the ball this season.. I like Maxwell more than most of this forum in general, but you do realise how much easier it is to maintain a good average when you're used in the role Maxwell has been for Victoria this season, right? I mean, he's taken seven wickets FFS. It's a whole different thing actually being used as a frontline bowler, and I think CA are probably a bit annoyed Maxwell hasn't been given more challenging spells, but it is what it is.

I'm not even going to dignify the Dave Hussey bowling thing with a response.

FTR, I've got no beef with O'Keefe being the backup spinner in India. It's probably how I'd lean at the moment. Ahead of Lyon in subcontinent conditions though? Nah.
 
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Prince EWS

Global Moderator
SOK's action too
Haha it's not really a coincidence that most of O'Keefe's fans become sold on him without (or at least before) actually sitting down and watching him bowl properly. He was really unlucky not to be picked when Beer was picked against England, especially since Beer had done nothing, but as I said at the time, if you watched them both bowl you'd at least get it, even if you strongly disagreed with it.
 

Spikey

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Haha it's not really a coincidence that most of O'Keefe's fans become sold on him without (or at least before) actually sitting down and watching him bowl properly. He was really unlucky not to be picked when Beer was picked against England, especially since Beer had done nothing, but as I said at the time, if you watched them both bowl you'd at least get it, even if you strongly disagreed with it.
Just one thing though, wouldn't India perhaps suit SOK and his style? like isn't the problem that he basically does nothing in the air (bar some angle...) which makes him a no goer in Aus, but in India where maybe he can expect some kick and bite from the pitch...?
 

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
Just one thing though, wouldn't India perhaps suit SOK and his style? like isn't the problem that he basically does nothing in the air (bar some angle...) which makes him a no goer in Aus, but in India where maybe he can expect some kick and bite from the pitch...?
I don't think he puts enough revs on the ball, especially in terms of overspin, to really be a threat in India.
 

the big bambino

International Captain
I've heard people say that flat, fastish finger spinners are the way to go in India. I'm non committal but tis what I've heard. Maybe for the reason mentioned earlier that you don't have to flight it or spin it too hard to get turn there. What you need is the accuracy. So apart from the ? over Lyon's ability to secure the latter necessity conditions should suit there.
 

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
I've heard people say that flat, fastish finger spinners are the way to go in India. I'm non committal but tis what I've heard. Maybe for the reason mentioned earlier that you don't have to flight it or spin it too hard to get turn there. What you need is the accuracy. So apart from the ? over Lyon's ability to secure the latter necessity conditions should suit there.
The ball spits in India, but you still need to spin it hard and get the ball rotating quickly even if you're not really going for dip. Bowling fast spin is still pointless if you're really just bowling nude darts.

A lot was said about how Panesar bowled quickly and accurately, but what made him successful was his ability to do that without compromising the work he was putting on the ball. A classic case of trying to get the ball up and down as quickly as possible; not exactly a case of getting the ball to the other end as quickly as possible.
 
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vic_orthdox

Global Moderator
Wasn't much different to Panesar's natural arc though, he's never really gotten much overspin on the ball. Swann and Panesar are both bowlers who can get serious work on the ball at 90-95km/h; it's one thing that Lyon definitely cannot do, and SOK's quick stuff just slides straight on.

Good sign to see O'Keefe getting some good turn on day 1 of the Shield game though; might be properly ragging by the end of the match.
 

Loose Cannon

U19 Debutant
So PEWS or vic, which past Australian bowler would be equivalent to what O'Keefe bowls? Any recent Indian spinners that you think he bowls similarly to?
 

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