wellAlbidarned
International Coach
If he's competing for 5/6/7 then yeah he's going to have to do a bit more than that. Still reckon we should shove him into opening [/goodthingI'mnotaselector]
-
Welcome to the Cricket Web forums, one of the biggest forums in the world dedicated to cricket.
You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join the Cricket Web community today!
If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
***Official*** England in New Zealand series 2013
- Thread starter NZTailender
- Start date
Flem274*
123/5
So how do we all feel about going back to Vettori + three quicks if it happens? After SA I think it's likely provided Dan the Man is fit.
He's a self admitted dasher who doesn't do the whole blocking or leaving thing, and his performances to date back that up. He plays cricket shots but he's still a dasher/biffer/whichever slang you want to use.
We've been over this before. IMO he doesn't fit in the side unless he or Watling open (and I really don't think Watling will make it as an opener based on previous) due to the way he plays. I rank him about 8th or 9th in the top batsmen in the country and because practically all of the players ahead of him bat 4-8 he needs to either keep belting it, show a new hand and get Wellington a draw, or he needs to take on a new role in the batting order if he wants to make the side. This isn't me being icky over his nationality, this is me trying to fit the best players in the country on one team sheet. If you're going to debate it though, at least check your facts.
And ftr Ronchi wouldn't be the worst punt we've made on a middle order -> opener conversion. A high 20s average with lots of quick 50s would be a massive bonus on what we have now.
He's a self admitted dasher who doesn't do the whole blocking or leaving thing, and his performances to date back that up. He plays cricket shots but he's still a dasher/biffer/whichever slang you want to use.
We've been over this before. IMO he doesn't fit in the side unless he or Watling open (and I really don't think Watling will make it as an opener based on previous) due to the way he plays. I rank him about 8th or 9th in the top batsmen in the country and because practically all of the players ahead of him bat 4-8 he needs to either keep belting it, show a new hand and get Wellington a draw, or he needs to take on a new role in the batting order if he wants to make the side. This isn't me being icky over his nationality, this is me trying to fit the best players in the country on one team sheet. If you're going to debate it though, at least check your facts.
And ftr Ronchi wouldn't be the worst punt we've made on a middle order -> opener conversion. A high 20s average with lots of quick 50s would be a massive bonus on what we have now.
wellAlbidarned
International Coach
3 quicks plus Dan is such a proven recipie for mediocrity. Southee, Boult, Bracewell, Mitch + Dan would be gun.
Prince EWS
Global Moderator
I'd be against it if you actually had four quicks worth picking, but with Martin seemingly past it suddenly and Gillespie permanently injured I'm not sure it's worth it. We'd be looking at Mitch or Milne really.
Watling and Brownlie hitting runs along with Ryder's apparent return actually gives the team some middle order bats worth picking too, so I'm okay with it I guess.
NZTailender
I can't believe I ate the whole thing
I think the problem for him is it's viewed as a keeper vs keeper situation, and given the current climate of the team, they're obviously keen to keep going with Watling in the lower order with the gloves. Which then begs the question, is he good enough to be one of 6 specialist bats in the side?
Hesson and co. have already indicated he probably won't be playing vs England but will include him in the tour match to see where he's at. I imagine he'll become the number 1 middle order reserve bat & backup keeper should anything happen to anyone else. He's not going to open, so if he was going to play in England he'd have to rely on one of Williamson, Brownlie, Watling or Taylor getting dropped, being injured or not taking part in that series (McCullum untouchable as captain). I think he's a better middle order option than Flynn (and Flynn should be made to open perhaps given our lack of anyone for that role if he was to keep playing). If you were to throw Ryder into the mix for the middle order the headache is larger...
But yeah, when you have guys like Flynn and Munro knocking about, I think Ronchi deserves to be there just as much as those guys.
Flem274*
123/5
Haha you're sold on Mitch M aren't you?
We'd be dropping a batsman and moving Dan to 6/7 with your team and if Ryder makes himself available, who plays?
wellAlbidarned
International Coach
Baz
Raunchi/Ryder (only place they fit in)
Kane
Taylaah
Brownlie
Watling
Dan
Bracewell
Southee
Boult
Mitch
[/Ihadadream]
Raunchi/Ryder (only place they fit in)
Kane
Taylaah
Brownlie
Watling
Dan
Bracewell
Southee
Boult
Mitch
[/Ihadadream]
Flem274*
123/5
I'm pretty dubious like Albi and I've been reminding myself that last summer Vettori went from innocuous to part time in all but name, but if he can at least keep batsmen tied down and bring back his batting then he plays, otherwise we might as well go three quicks + Bruce Martin. Looks to be a solid spinner, and imo can outdo Jeets and Tastle (not that its hard) along with providing a normal number eight batsman.
Sodhi taking a storm of wickets @ 25 in the back half of the season would put the cat among the pigeons, since it would be tempting to get him in the squad to play against batsmen who are good against wrist spin. Sodhi Can Bat too.
Flem274*
123/5
Jesse opening on a green top would be pretty funny to watch tbf.
Scaly piscine
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Ronchi bats properly, he's just very aggressive and a horrible starter.So how do we all feel about going back to Vettori + three quicks if it happens? After SA I think it's likely provided Dan the Man is fit.
He's a self admitted dasher who doesn't do the whole blocking or leaving thing, and his performances to date back that up. He plays cricket shots but he's still a dasher/biffer/whichever slang you want to use.
We've been over this before. IMO he doesn't fit in the side unless he or Watling open (and I really don't think Watling will make it as an opener based on previous) due to the way he plays. I rank him about 8th or 9th in the top batsmen in the country and because practically all of the players ahead of him bat 4-8 he needs to either keep belting it, show a new hand and get Wellington a draw, or he needs to take on a new role in the batting order if he wants to make the side. This isn't me being icky over his nationality, this is me trying to fit the best players in the country on one team sheet. If you're going to debate it though, at least check your facts.
And ftr Ronchi wouldn't be the worst punt we've made on a middle order -> opener conversion. A high 20s average with lots of quick 50s would be a massive bonus on what we have now.
There is a whole world of difference between Ronchi and guys like Nicol. Who can't score significant runs against a half-decent attack without slogging. Then you have guys who can bat, but also slog a fair bit at times - see Ryder and Taylor.
Do not give me horse**** about me checking my facts.
Prince EWS
Global Moderator
No-one is suggesting Nicol play ahead of Ronchi though.
Ronchi should definitely play ODIs and he should in the mix for the Tests. But if Ryder comes back then there's probably no place for him in Tests right now beyond first reserve. I'll sure he'll get a shot soonish anyway but it doesn't have to be right now; the middle order depth is suddenly a lot better. He's not actually competing against Nicol, Flynn, Franklin or Munro; it's Brownlie, Watling and Ryder who are his competition and they should be ahead of him as it stands in Tests.
Flem274*
123/5
Nicol isn't in the test side and will never play another test though, so I don't see your point.
Your comparison to Taylor and Ryder is null as well. Ronchi has been mini-Ryder in the Plunket Shield, so if Ryder returns and fails, Ronchi's odds might be worse. Taylor is the best batsman in the country by a distance.
Ronchi scores fast with proper cricket shots, but his style still limits where he can bat in the side without being a hindrance. He's limited to 1/2/6/7. Only one of those positions is available.
Lets assume all the rumours are true and NZ has a full deck when they play England. Who makes way for Ronchi in the side? And lets be realistic about it, so you can't drop McCullum or go in with two bowlers.
Your comparison to Taylor and Ryder is null as well. Ronchi has been mini-Ryder in the Plunket Shield, so if Ryder returns and fails, Ronchi's odds might be worse. Taylor is the best batsman in the country by a distance.
Ronchi scores fast with proper cricket shots, but his style still limits where he can bat in the side without being a hindrance. He's limited to 1/2/6/7. Only one of those positions is available.
Lets assume all the rumours are true and NZ has a full deck when they play England. Who makes way for Ronchi in the side? And lets be realistic about it, so you can't drop McCullum or go in with two bowlers.
Mike5181
International Captain
Ryder's capable of bowling ten overs an innings. He's bowled a lot for Wellington this season. Vettori + Southee, Boult, Bracewell, and Ryder/Williamson is certainly more likely to happen than Vettori at number six or Ronchi/Ryder opening so he can bat at seven.
Scaly piscine
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
God what a load of facepalm.
The Nicol comparison is to highlight the difference between a block/slog merchant and Ronchi.
I can't see NZ picking 5 bowlers (if we assume Vettori is a bowler). Also if by some miracle everyone is available then Ryder (if he's fit to bowl) and Williamson (who's about as big a threat with the ball as Vettori) are realistic bowling options. You don't really need 5 bowlers in that case. Better off picking the best 4 bowlers.
The odds of NZ having all players available AND picking 5 bowlers PLUS Kane and Ryder are astronomical.
The Nicol comparison is to highlight the difference between a block/slog merchant and Ronchi.
I can't see NZ picking 5 bowlers (if we assume Vettori is a bowler). Also if by some miracle everyone is available then Ryder (if he's fit to bowl) and Williamson (who's about as big a threat with the ball as Vettori) are realistic bowling options. You don't really need 5 bowlers in that case. Better off picking the best 4 bowlers.
The odds of NZ having all players available AND picking 5 bowlers PLUS Kane and Ryder are astronomical.
BeeGee
International Captain
Pick a NZ test XI with Ronchi in it.
Prince EWS
Global Moderator
Yeah but that doesn't need to happen for the middle order to still be all booked out.
3 Williamson
4 Taylor
5 Brownlie
6 Ryder
7 Watling
Unless you want one of those blokes or Ronchi himself to open then there's no place for him right now. Dropping Brownlie or Watling after they performed in South Africa would be silly and the rest pick themselves, barring perhaps Williamson.. and I don't think you want to drop Williamson for Ronchi.
Are you suggesting Watling go back up to open?
Mike5181
International Captain
You still haven't explained how Ronchi is a better middle-order option than Taylor, Ryder, Brownlie or Watling. Good luck justifying his inclusion over two blokes that just averaged in the mid 40s against the best bowling attack in the world in their home conditions.
wellAlbidarned
International Coach
I'm not counting part timers. I think that our quick bowlers aren't the kind that can carry a normal four man attack, they all have plenty of bad days and need the cushioning of three other full time quicks. Having that extra guy seems to provide an extra mental boost meaning they can all go hard-out without worrying too much, rather than holding back because we're always one bowler down away from a disaster.