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***Official*** England in India
- Thread starter Jarquis
- Start date
Furball
Evil Scotsman
The problem with the latest plan is that it's "DRS for a series if the home board wants it." Which means that Tests in India will still be played under different conditions to the rest of the world.
Scaly piscine
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Yep, it's complete bollocks - there can't be a compromise with this.
Neil Pickup
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For those wanting to "explain away" Dernbach's economy rate based on his era, let's see what happens if we look at bowlers bowling 300+ deliveries since his debut... he's still crap
Neil Pickup
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Just seen Kieswetter's dismissal. The bat path on that shot is frightening.
BoyBrumby
Englishman
We'd almost certainly be stronger with Buttler for Kieswetter but who's replacing Dernbach?
Woakes or Meaker, in all probability, and both are very much in the piechucking category.
Not that I'm advocating keeping him, if nothing else the two I mention would offer more with the bat, just that the cupboard looks pretty bare.
Prince EWS
Global Moderator
Jarvis is better than that these days too; that'll come down as he plays more.
theegyptian
International Vice-Captain
fwiw i wrote this about the wicketkeeping situation a few days ago.
Craig Kieswetter is unfortunately not working out in the middle order. His game seems to have stalled and he seems unable to rotate the strike whilst paralysed by dread at the thought of playing an attacking shot. Kieswetter always has been primarily an opener in the shorter form of the game and to ask him to start a new role on the international stage was always going to be tough. He hasn’t adapted so it is time to move on. I do hold Kieswetter in high regard as a tremendous hitter who could flourish against quality fast bowling attacks but at the moment he seems to have mental troubles with batting in the middle order and should be given an extended break from the international setup.
So who to replace him and where to bat them? Jos Buttler needs to find a way into the England team as he has a unique talent in county cricket for destroying attacks and timing run chases; a talent that needs to be nurtured over time. In only 3 seasons of county cricket he has proven to be the best middle order batsmen in English limited overs cricket. His talent is undoubted and he needs to be backed. For Buttler’s style to be best utilised he needs to bat at 6 or 7 and be trusted to play his own game. It will be high variance and there will be a run of games where he fails or doesn’t bat but the upside is too much to overlook. The number 6 or 7 spot may appear unimportant but for a team like England’s with a solid rather than destructive top 3 the acceleration will have to come towards the end of the innings from the middle order. Regrettably for Buttler, England are short of bowling options from the batsmen and there is no space for a high risk player who has only showed glimpses of his talent so far in international cricket.
Unfortunately for Buttler at present England don’t deem his wicketkeeping good enough for 50 over cricket; even more of a problem for Buttler is that Kieswetter is ahead of him at Somerset as well. Buttler is never going to improve enough to be the regular wicketkeeper of England whilst he is replacement wicketkeeper at Somerset. To me, one of Buttler or Kieswetter needs to leave Somerset. As Buttler is the reserve keeper he is the player with most to gain from moving but actually for both players benefit I would actually recommend Kieswetter to leave. Kieswetter’s career seems to have stalled at present and Taunton may not be the place to push on and make the adjustments to his game that is required to prosper at the highest level. The fact is Kieswetter can get away with his block or bash style at Taunton with the flat wicket, short boundary and fast outfield; There is no need for rotation of the strike when you can just clump the ball to the boundary. Kieswetter’s 4 day game is actually pretty well regarded (and is a significantly better batsman that Buttler) but a move away from Taunton to a more seam or spin friendly surface will mean that he is forced to make adjustments to his game that could mean he succeeds Matt Prior as test Wicketkeeper which should be his long term ambition.
Of course this is looking at affair from outside and without emotion. Kieswetter and Buttler both appear very happy and settled at Somerset but to truly make it in international cricket tough choices have to be made. Kevin Pietersen forsake his homeland at the age of 20 in the pursuit of better opportunities – would he be playing professional cricket today if he stayed in South Africa? It would be in England’s and the player's best interests if one of Buttler or Kieswetter moved on; Somerset may not be quite so happy or willing.
As inevitable as day turning to night, the calls for Matt Prior to return to the ODI and T20 setup have returned again. Prior is a world class wicketkeeper batsmen in test cricket there is no doubt but a proven failure in the shorter formats. Whereas his style savages good attacks in test cricket, in ODI cricket he doesn’t have the range of strokes to dominate when the opposition are defending. A good season in county cricket is hardly proof of improvement and a more accurate representation of his skills may come from the recent Australian Big Bash where against stronger opposition on bigger outfields he was exposed as his hoicks hit fresh air or the edge. He has failed once too often to be considered again in my opinion and he may be better served preserving his test career rather than re-entering the constant rigmarole of the ODI game.
In turn that doesn’t leave much. Jonny Bairstow is the other clear choice but at present he is not with the squad for personal reasons and his wicketkeeping is on a similar level to Jos Buttler. He also won’t be getting many chances to improve having made the full England test squad as a batsman alone. His batting also is similar to Kieswetter in that he struggles against spin and to rotate the strike. At present he isn’t the solution either.
In another time James Foster or Chris Read would be regulars in the ODI team but their time has gone and to return to either would be an act of desperation. They may be unlucky to have not played more but there is enough talent in the youth to not need to revisit old failures.
So that in turn leaves no-one. Kieswetter needs a break to improve his game both on a technical and mental level. Prior has had one chance too many and should be left to test cricket. It probably comes down to a straight shootout between Bairstow and Buttler. Bairstow is ahead in the wicketkeeping but Buttler in the batting. Buttler is the long term solution for me as England need to find some way of including him in the team for his combative batting and experience in run chases and at the death. It will be hit and miss and he needs something to fall back upon in the hard times and the wicketkeeping should offer that. He could be England’s Dhoni. Whether England think he is a good enough wicketkeeper at present is another question. Probably one we will find the answer to in the next few days when England pick their team for the rest of this ODI series.
cliffs - I've got no idea what England should do but no Prior or Kieswetter.
Craig Kieswetter is unfortunately not working out in the middle order. His game seems to have stalled and he seems unable to rotate the strike whilst paralysed by dread at the thought of playing an attacking shot. Kieswetter always has been primarily an opener in the shorter form of the game and to ask him to start a new role on the international stage was always going to be tough. He hasn’t adapted so it is time to move on. I do hold Kieswetter in high regard as a tremendous hitter who could flourish against quality fast bowling attacks but at the moment he seems to have mental troubles with batting in the middle order and should be given an extended break from the international setup.
So who to replace him and where to bat them? Jos Buttler needs to find a way into the England team as he has a unique talent in county cricket for destroying attacks and timing run chases; a talent that needs to be nurtured over time. In only 3 seasons of county cricket he has proven to be the best middle order batsmen in English limited overs cricket. His talent is undoubted and he needs to be backed. For Buttler’s style to be best utilised he needs to bat at 6 or 7 and be trusted to play his own game. It will be high variance and there will be a run of games where he fails or doesn’t bat but the upside is too much to overlook. The number 6 or 7 spot may appear unimportant but for a team like England’s with a solid rather than destructive top 3 the acceleration will have to come towards the end of the innings from the middle order. Regrettably for Buttler, England are short of bowling options from the batsmen and there is no space for a high risk player who has only showed glimpses of his talent so far in international cricket.
Unfortunately for Buttler at present England don’t deem his wicketkeeping good enough for 50 over cricket; even more of a problem for Buttler is that Kieswetter is ahead of him at Somerset as well. Buttler is never going to improve enough to be the regular wicketkeeper of England whilst he is replacement wicketkeeper at Somerset. To me, one of Buttler or Kieswetter needs to leave Somerset. As Buttler is the reserve keeper he is the player with most to gain from moving but actually for both players benefit I would actually recommend Kieswetter to leave. Kieswetter’s career seems to have stalled at present and Taunton may not be the place to push on and make the adjustments to his game that is required to prosper at the highest level. The fact is Kieswetter can get away with his block or bash style at Taunton with the flat wicket, short boundary and fast outfield; There is no need for rotation of the strike when you can just clump the ball to the boundary. Kieswetter’s 4 day game is actually pretty well regarded (and is a significantly better batsman that Buttler) but a move away from Taunton to a more seam or spin friendly surface will mean that he is forced to make adjustments to his game that could mean he succeeds Matt Prior as test Wicketkeeper which should be his long term ambition.
Of course this is looking at affair from outside and without emotion. Kieswetter and Buttler both appear very happy and settled at Somerset but to truly make it in international cricket tough choices have to be made. Kevin Pietersen forsake his homeland at the age of 20 in the pursuit of better opportunities – would he be playing professional cricket today if he stayed in South Africa? It would be in England’s and the player's best interests if one of Buttler or Kieswetter moved on; Somerset may not be quite so happy or willing.
As inevitable as day turning to night, the calls for Matt Prior to return to the ODI and T20 setup have returned again. Prior is a world class wicketkeeper batsmen in test cricket there is no doubt but a proven failure in the shorter formats. Whereas his style savages good attacks in test cricket, in ODI cricket he doesn’t have the range of strokes to dominate when the opposition are defending. A good season in county cricket is hardly proof of improvement and a more accurate representation of his skills may come from the recent Australian Big Bash where against stronger opposition on bigger outfields he was exposed as his hoicks hit fresh air or the edge. He has failed once too often to be considered again in my opinion and he may be better served preserving his test career rather than re-entering the constant rigmarole of the ODI game.
In turn that doesn’t leave much. Jonny Bairstow is the other clear choice but at present he is not with the squad for personal reasons and his wicketkeeping is on a similar level to Jos Buttler. He also won’t be getting many chances to improve having made the full England test squad as a batsman alone. His batting also is similar to Kieswetter in that he struggles against spin and to rotate the strike. At present he isn’t the solution either.
In another time James Foster or Chris Read would be regulars in the ODI team but their time has gone and to return to either would be an act of desperation. They may be unlucky to have not played more but there is enough talent in the youth to not need to revisit old failures.
So that in turn leaves no-one. Kieswetter needs a break to improve his game both on a technical and mental level. Prior has had one chance too many and should be left to test cricket. It probably comes down to a straight shootout between Bairstow and Buttler. Bairstow is ahead in the wicketkeeping but Buttler in the batting. Buttler is the long term solution for me as England need to find some way of including him in the team for his combative batting and experience in run chases and at the death. It will be hit and miss and he needs something to fall back upon in the hard times and the wicketkeeping should offer that. He could be England’s Dhoni. Whether England think he is a good enough wicketkeeper at present is another question. Probably one we will find the answer to in the next few days when England pick their team for the rest of this ODI series.
cliffs - I've got no idea what England should do but no Prior or Kieswetter.
Not much to disagree with there.
There seems to be an awful lot more of these half-keepers these days and it makes things a little bit complicated. Kieswetter is quite obviously not up to it at this stage so as you say it will come down to Bairstow or Buttler but I think both need to decide (or have it decided for them) if they are going to be keepers or not.
Wish Michael Bates was a little better with the bat (although Hampshire don't give him much of a change in limited overs as he bats so low) his keeping so promising.
There seems to be an awful lot more of these half-keepers these days and it makes things a little bit complicated. Kieswetter is quite obviously not up to it at this stage so as you say it will come down to Bairstow or Buttler but I think both need to decide (or have it decided for them) if they are going to be keepers or not.
Wish Michael Bates was a little better with the bat (although Hampshire don't give him much of a change in limited overs as he bats so low) his keeping so promising.
grecian
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Well the next serious-ish One-dayers is the Champions Trophy in England. So maybe Woakes bowling won't be so dire in those conditions. Shame Onions is so ****e in limited-overs, but I'd rather him than Meaker or Dirtbag.
TBH, I wouldn't hate us playing tredders and Swann, rather than throwing in a ****e seamer. Bopara could bowl some useful seam, if required (that comment just for Scaly)
Really hope they give Briggs a game in both these last two matches, can't do any worse, ATM.
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Howe_zat
Audio File
Broad is a given to bowl in the CT if fit. With him, Bresnan is still one of precious few seamers we have to have done well at the death on more than a handful of occasions, and given that Anderson, Woakes and the like would be best suited to bowling out in the first 35. Need him back on song asap, really. Meaker perhaps has the raw skills if he kicks on in the early season.
Past that, there's, erm, hm
Bring back Sidebottom
Past that, there's, erm, hm
Bring back Sidebottom
Neil Pickup
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Top shout from the Egyptian on the keeping situation. Wonder how Ben Foakes will develop with Foster blocking his way at Chelmsford...?
grecian
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
I've been thinking that for a while TBH, think he needs a move, because Foster isn't retiring anytime soon.
Cabinet96
Hall of Fame Member
I personally reckon we've seen the last of him for a long while. Leaking 45 runs in 5 overs when defending 160 will be the final straw. Doubt he'll be seriously in the frame until after the Champions Trophy.
But like Grecian said, I'm not too worried about how certain guys are going in India, with the Champions Trophy being in England. Woakes could very well be a handy 5th bowler and number 7 bat for the tournament, especially if Bresnan doesn't regain form.
I doubt we'll see more than one change to the bowling attack that played for most of last summer, where we won 8 of the 10 ODI's we played.
This is the way I'd go for the Champions Trophy, and I think England will go very similar.
7. Bresnan/Woakes
8. Broad
9. Swann
10. Anderson
11. Finn
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Prince EWS
Global Moderator
Yeah I agree. Selectors are able to keep faith in players who are pretty consistently mediocre the odd bright sign (Bopara a classic example really), but when players put in absolutely disgraceful performances or series they tend to get the arse anyway (Bopara again a good example here with his recent eventual dropping). I think we've just seen the latter with Dernbach now. He's certainly played himself out of the best eleven if they ever thought he was actually part of that, which seemed the case for a little while.