**Official** New Zealand in South Africa

[NZTailender]

I was happy to give Franklin one more chance when he was selected for the test side against India and then SL. And he actually looked quite good and in-control at times in India on wickets that suit his game - he's not terrible against spin. But that shows up his mental problems even more - he was looking calm and technically competent and he was still unable to cash in and make any sort of telling contribution. A couple of those shots to get out were just awful. Then factor in that he's pretty hopeless against any quality pace bowling, bouncy/seaming pitches and we have a player who simply does not contribute runs..

Indeed. It's 'go back and make domestic runs' time. Edit: which is what he was doing (big 11/12 season), but you get the feeling he's simply not in touch.

 

[Prince EWS]

Indeed. It's 'go back and make domestic runs' time. Edit: which is what he was doing (big 11/12 season), but you get the feeling he's simply not in touch.

I think we're beyond even that now. It's "become a opening bowler again and outperform the other Plunket Shield bowlers or forget it" time. The longer this goes on, the more people will remember him as a failed batsman and the less they'll remember him as the genuinely good opening bowler he was before his injury. It's not like he's actually contributing to the side.

 

[hendrix]

Tastle is a different style of bowler to Vettori but in a five-man attack it should be fine to have a spinner who is a little random and inconsistent but occasionally takes wickets. Particularly if one of the pace-bowlers can bowl a lot of holding overs like Oram used to (Neesham to do this?).

No doubt Tastle needs to improve and I don't necessarily think he will become good enough to perform this role long term, but it's not out of the question.

Bruce Martin is never going to be good enough to bat 7, so has to be considered as a pure spinner like Patel.

Agree with you on all of this, but Vettori himself was a number 8. Neesham would be the one batting 7 anyway.

 

[NZTailender]

Yeah, Southee's batting comes under a lot of criticism for under achieving, but he's still averaging 20 with the bat since the start of 2010. I think if anything though his strike rate is too high - he strikes at over 80 in that period which means he's not building a partnership with the set batsman, he's just adding a cheap 20 to the total and then getting out. It makes him useful at nine to hit with the rest of the tail but not ideal to bat eight. A bit like Swanny's batting in a lot of ways.

Bracewell's done nothing at all in Tests with the bat yet but I get the feeling that if just threw the bat like Southee did he'd have similar results and average 20 odd too. He's trying to develop a proper defence and bat more properly so he can build partnerships and become a real Test number 8 as time goes on. Either way I don't think it's a big issue unless Chris Martin is also playing - Wagner can bat, so can Vettori and Astle if they get into the side obviously, and even Patel/Bruce Martin/Boult can add quick runs. Chris Martin at eleven does make Bracewell's slow development as a number eight hurt more, especially with Southee injured.

At some point their batting will have to make the cross from potential to hard facts. Southee needs to learn when that hitting is appropriate, and Bracewell needs more development. He could become a Gillespie-style figure at 8 with Southee more Lee like at 9.

 

[wellAlbidarned]

I remember Franklin being delivered about 3 or 4 125kph long hops by the SL quicks that he left because we'd lost a few wickets to Herath.

He's over-complicating things.

He just needs to be told "Hit the ****ing ball".

Yeah that's one of the things Crowe said in his massive rant about NZ cricket. He looks like a guy who's worrying about getting out every ball.

 

[NZTailender]

I think we're beyond even that now. It's "become a opening bowler again and outperform the other Plunket Shield bowlers or forget it" time. The longer this goes on, the more people will remember him as a failed batsman and the less they'll remember him as the genuinely good opening bowler he was before his injury. It's not like he's actually contributing to the side.

Can his body hack it though? With Bondy as bowling coach this is last chance for that to happen. He'd be worth far more as a bowler than a potential all-rounder, easily.

 

[Cabinet96]

Can New Zealand really afford to bring in someone like Neesham for Franklin though? I know Franklin hasn't exactly bee setting the world alight, but I would have thought you'd want the batting all rounder at 7, rather than the bowling one. I certainly wouldn't want to be going in with a bowling all rounder at 7 against South Africa.

 

[wellAlbidarned]

He's been contributing so few runs that we might as well be playing a bowler there. Not to mention he's barely part-time standard with the ball now.

 

[Prince EWS]

Can his body hack it though?

If not then he's finished as a Test cricketer IMO. Sad, especially as he's been one of my favourite players for ages, but true. I actually think there's more chance of Sinclair or Vincent making a first of it as a Test batsman from this point. And again, favourite players etc, but that's saying something. He actually had better numbers as a Test batsman when he was a bowler; all that's changed is that he's averaging 100 with the ball now instead of 28.

I don't think he has it in him to be anything like the bowler he was anymore. I'd be highly surprised if he managed it. But if he wants to be a decent Test cricketer again then that's what he has to aim for, because the batting thing isn't going to work out, as much as I'd love it to.

 

[Prince EWS]

Can New Zealand really afford to bring in someone like Neesham for Franklin though? I know Franklin hasn't exactly bee setting the world alight, but I would have thought you'd want the batting all rounder at 7, rather than the bowling one. I certainly wouldn't want to be going in with a bowling all rounder at 7 against South Africa.

Neesham is a batting allrounder. Just hasn't scored many runs domestically yet. That's a good enough reason not to select him yet anyway really but I certainly wouldn't be calling him a bowling allrounder. Not in the squad anyway.

 

[NZTailender]

Can New Zealand really afford to bring in someone like Neesham for Franklin though? I know Franklin hasn't exactly bee setting the world alight, but I would have thought you'd want the batting all rounder at 7, rather than the bowling one. I certainly wouldn't want to be going in with a bowling all rounder at 7 against South Africa.

IMO no, not right now. Obviously not for this Test but a few years down the track I could see Neesham at 7. Theoretically, given his experience and past ability with the bat, Franklin is the perfect No. 7 for us right now. Problem is, he's out of confidence and out of touch with the bat to an extent. I get the feeling if he really got himself in and adjusted, he could bat his way out of this funk.

 

[hendrix]

Can his body hack it though? With Bondy as bowling coach this is last chance for that to happen. He'd be worth far more as a bowler than a potential all-rounder, easily.

There are 3 left arm fast bowlers, one of whom is better than Franklin ever was, and another who's very likely to be better.

There's no way in hell Franklin would make the side as a bowler.

Can New Zealand really afford to bring in someone like Neesham for Franklin though? I know Franklin hasn't exactly bee setting the world alight, but I would have thought you'd want the batting all rounder at 7, rather than the bowling one. I certainly wouldn't want to be going in with a bowling all rounder at 7 against South Africa.

TBH I think of Neesham as a batting allrounder.

 

[NZTailender]

If not then he's finished as a Test cricketer IMO. Sad, especially as he's been one of my favourite players for ages, but true. I actually think there's more chance of Sinclair or Vincent making a first of it as a Test batsman from this point. And again, favourite players etc, but that's saying something. He actually had better numbers as a Test batsman when he was a bowler; all that's changed is that he's averaging 100 with the ball now instead of 28.

I don't think he has it in him to be anything like the bowler he was anymore. I'd be highly surprised if he managed it. But if he wants to be a decent Test cricketer again then that's what he has to aim for, because the batting thing isn't going to work out, as much as I'd love it to.

The impression I had when he made his comeback as a 'batsman' that he was to be a replacement for Oram in the long term. His bowling probably won't ever go back to that standard but, but I agree his standard as a batsman won't see him cut it so he's needs to be a better bowler than a batsman if he wants to stay in the side.

FWIW, I think the same about Vettori.

 

[NZTailender]

There are 3 left arm fast bowlers, one of whom is better than Franklin ever was, and another who's very likely to be better.

Who?

Franklin back in the day was a seriously good bowler, severely underrated. He was in the top ten strike rates of all time for a while there IIRC. I don't consider any of the current left-armers for NZ to be better than he was then.

No question about it now, though.

 

[wellAlbidarned]

I can't see how you can claim that Franklin the fast bowler was ever underrated. He was around for about five minutes.

 

[Cabinet96]

Neesham is a batting allrounder. Just hasn't scored many runs domestically yet. That's a good enough reason not to select him yet anyway really but I certainly wouldn't be calling him a bowling allrounder. Not in the squad anyway.

Yeah, fair enough. I wasn't really looking at his bowling stats I just saw his batting stats and assumed he was a bowler who could bat reasonably.

I'd still probably just pick whoever I thought the strongest bat was at 7 for the next test.

 

[hendrix]

Who?

Franklin back in the day was a seriously good bowler, severely underrated. He was in the top ten strike rates of all time for a while there IIRC. I don't consider any of the current left-armers for NZ to be better than he was then.

No question about it now, though.

Yeah, I'm probably underrating how good he was as a bowler

 

[Prince EWS]

Who?

Franklin back in the day was a seriously good bowler, severely underrated. He was in the top ten strike rates of all time for a while there IIRC. I don't consider any of the current left-armers for NZ to be better than he was then.

No question about it now, though.

Yeah, this is what annoys me about his comeback more than anything else. There were already enough people who just refused to rate his bowling before his injury when it was good without him spending 5 years bowling complete pies and pretending to be a batsman. He first incarnation as a Test cricketer will never get the respect it deserved; people will just remember this version of Franklin, which sadly is a complete shadow of a Test cricketer.

 

[NZTailender]

I can't see how you can claim that Franklin the fast bowler was ever underrated. He was around for about five minutes.

So because he didn't play much he can't be underrated? For the matches he did play, he was underrated in those then & now.

 

[Prince EWS]

I can't see how you can claim that Franklin the fast bowler was ever underrated. He was around for about five minutes.

He took 76 wickets in 21 Tests @ 28 before his injury and subsequent pie-chucking, batsman impersonating comeback in 2008. That's the same amount of Tests as Southee has played so far in his career (for 65 wickets @ 35).