**Official** New Zealand in South Africa

[Prince EWS]

I reckon Todd Astle would play the second Test if he was actually on tour. Having him in for Franklin as the number seven bat and fifth bowler would allow four quicks to play instead of Patel. Bruce Martin's batting isn't good enough to offer that option, so the only serious alternative to Franklin is Munro, and well....

I don't rate Tastle's bowling much as I've said but just for balance reasons and the fact that he had a decent debut I was surprised he was cut from the squad altogether after that one match, and my surprise continues here.

 

[NZTailender]

He's just such a nice bloke

And you want him to succeed. Well I do, anyway. When he gets dropped he'll probably go back to scoring lots of runs in FC cricket and taking wickets. Some intensive coaching for his batting technique is needed. like, long term, day in day out type of stuff. Do we not have the money to do stuff like that?

 

[NZTailender]

I reckon Todd Astle would play the second Test if he was actually on tour. Having him in for Franklin as the number seven bat and fifth bowler would allow four quicks to play instead of Patel. Bruce Martin's batting isn't good enough to offer that option, so the only serious alternative to Franklin is Munro, and well....

I don't rate Tastle's bowling much as I've said but just for balance reasons and the fact that he had a decent debut I was surprised he was cut from the squad altogether after that one match, and my surprise continues here.

And you just know he'd probably be good for 1 or 2 vital wickets of top order batsman. granted, they'd be his only wickets in the game probably, but they'd be important.

 

[Prince EWS]

And you just know he'd probably be good for 1 or 2 vital wickets of top order batsman. granted, they'd be his only wickets in the game probably, but they'd be important.

He's got the technique with the bat to contribute as well as the top order is managing as well; his problem has always been kicking on with starts and doing justice to his technique with big runs, I don't imagine his Test batting output would be much different to his domestic output given how highly that technique has been spoken of.

Playing him as one of four bowlers would definitely have been too dangerous a move IMO so I can see why Bruce Martin is the backup spinner, but with four seamers and Kane also in the side in case he got murdered, I think he'd be an okay pick here. PE should suit him if it plays anything like it has in the last few ODIs I've seen there, too.

 

[hendrix]

If we're talking who could be there instead of Franklin, Jimmy Neesham is a better option than Astle IMO.

 

[NZTailender]

He's got the technique with the bat to contribute as well as the top order is managing as well; his problem has always been kicking on with starts and doing justice to his technique with big runs, I don't imagine his Test batting output would be much different to his domestic output given how highly that technique has been spoken of.

Playing him as one of four bowlers would definitely have been too dangerous a move IMO so I can see why Bruce Martin is the backup spinner, but with four seamers and Kane also in the side in case he got murdered, I think he'd be an okay pick here. PE should suit him if it plays anything like it has in the last few ODIs I've seen there, too.

I think Franklin's mental game has always been one of his bigger problems standing in the way of really flourishing as a specialist batsman. When he has some semblance of confidence, he actually looks alright. But you don't see that at the moment. Makes you wonder, if we played an innings really well and he'd come in at 5/6 for 500 (remote, I know) how he'd handle that and how confident he'd be of scoring runs when it doesn't matter. Of course, it matters more that we rarely get into such a situation so his role is more crucial where he's batting, almost more so than some of the top order positions.

Agree re: Astle. I don't dislike the selection of Martin and I hope he gets a gig in this second test, and in future series to be honest. Could be a late-blooming Swann type. But yeah, Astle playing a game as 5th bowler wouldn't have been the worst. Maybe they want him playing domestic with eyes on the England series? If Martin plays and gets dropped, as well as Patel not looking so hot right now, he might just become the #1 pick for the spinner role...

 

[Kippax]

He's got the technique with the bat to contribute as well as the top order is managing as well; his problem has always been kicking on with starts and doing justice to his technique with big runs, I don't imagine his Test batting output would be much different to his domestic output given how highly that technique has been spoken of.

Tastle did get bullied by James McMillan's pace and bounce. Could be time for Tastle vs. Short Stuff.

 

[NZTailender]

If we're talking who could be there instead of Franklin, Jimmy Neesham is a better option than Astle IMO.

Possibly. I think the point here is that a 4-man pace attack with Astle as the spinner wouldn't be worse than 3 seam-1 spin-Franklin.
1. Boult-Bracewell-C.Martin-Wagner-Astle vs 2. Boult-Bracewell-Wagner-B.Martin-Neesham vs 3. Boult-Bracewell-Wagner-Astle-Neesham? The first one looks the strongest.

 

[Prince EWS]

If we're talking who could be there instead of Franklin, Jimmy Neesham is a better option than Astle IMO.

The reason I'm bigging up Astle for the role is the fact that it'd all Wagner to come in for Patel. If you played Neesham then you'd still have to play Jeets or Bruce Martin. I don't really think picking someone with one hundred and an average of 20 odd as a batting allrounder really makes much sense anyway, as much as I think Neesham will play a lot of Tests for New Zealand eventually.

I like Jeets (and Franklin for that matter), and PE may even suit him actually, but I don't think he's really going to be a good option against South Africa in general. If Todd Astle was on tour the whole balance of the team could change and both Franklin and Patel could be replaced.

 

[straw man]

I reckon Todd Astle would play the second Test if he was actually on tour. Having him in for Franklin as the number seven bat and fifth bowler would allow four quicks to play instead of Patel.

This makes sense seeing as that's how I'd generally like to see Vettori used (bats 7, provides spin and lets us play four quicks), and Tastle is Vettori-lite. A different style of spin bowler yes, but could perform a similar role in the side if he improves.

We still need a quick bowler who can bat 8 though.

 

[NZTailender]

This makes sense seeing as that's how I'd generally like to see Vettori used (bats 7, provides spin and lets us play four quicks), and Tastle is Vettori-lite. A different style of spin bowler yes, but could perform a similar role in the side if he improves.

We still need a quick bowler who can bat 8 though.

Southee & Bracewell have the tools to bat 8. Wagner too. Wouldn't be keen on having a seam all-rounder at 8 at the expense of a specialist bowler. Plus, we should work on the top 7 so the role of number 8 doesn't become a problem.

 

[Prince EWS]

Southee & Bracewell have the tools to bat 8. Wagner too. Wouldn't be keen on having a seam all-rounder at 8 at the expense of a specialist bowler. Plus, we should work on the top 7 so the role of number 8 doesn't become a problem.

I don't think Southee will ever really be an eight, I think he's just a ****ing awesome #9. That's why Bracewell bats above him currently even though Southee has more runs in him at the moment; he's got a higher ceiling to be a proper contributing "batsman" in that position.

 

[Prince EWS]

Tastle did get bullied by James McMillan's pace and bounce. Could be time for Tastle vs. Short Stuff.

Rare footage of James McMillan not in a cast would be a sight to behold in itself.

 

[hendrix]

Possibly. I think the point here is that a 4-man pace attack with Astle as the spinner wouldn't be worse than 3 seam-1 spin-Franklin.
1. Boult-Bracewell-C.Martin-Wagner-Astle vs 2. Boult-Bracewell-Wagner-B.Martin-Neesham vs 3. Boult-Bracewell-Wagner-Astle-Neesham? The first one looks the strongest.

I'd go with Boult-C.Martin-Bracewell-B.Martin-Neesham.

The reason I'm bigging up Astle for the role is the fact that it'd all Wagner to come in for Patel. If you played Neesham then you'd still have to play Jeets or Bruce Martin.

which is stronger - 1. Wagner-Astle or 2. Neesham-Patel?

It's number 2 IMO. Both with the ball and the bat.

But then I mainly just don't like Wagner.

This makes sense seeing as that's how I'd generally like to see Vettori used (bats 7, provides spin and lets us play four quicks), and Tastle is Vettori-lite. A different style of spin bowler yes, but could perform a similar role in the side if he improves.

Tastle will never perform the same role as Vettori. He's not tight enough and it's unlikely as a legspinner that he ever will be.

Bruce Martin is more Vettori-lite IMO.

 

[NZTailender]

I don't think Southee will ever really be an eight, I think he's just a ****ing awesome #9. That's why Bracewell bats above him currently even though Southee has more runs in him at the moment; he's got a higher ceiling to be a proper contributing "batsman" in that position.

Fair point They need a bit of Gillespie-style defense though, as they can attack pretty well.

 

[straw man]

I think Franklin's mental game has always been one of his bigger problems standing in the way of really flourishing as a specialist batsman. When he has some semblance of confidence, he actually looks alright.

Mental game is a massive part of his problem - he was always a shoulder-slumper when he was a specialist bowler and rather predictably he's now a flake in the batting. I can't see it changing now.

I was happy to give Franklin one more chance when he was selected for the test side against India and then SL. And he actually looked quite good and in-control at times in India on wickets that suit his game - he's not terrible against spin. But that shows up his mental problems even more - he was looking calm and technically competent and he was still unable to cash in and make any sort of telling contribution. A couple of those shots to get out were just awful. Then factor in that he's pretty hopeless against any quality pace bowling, bouncy/seaming pitches and we have a player who simply does not contribute runs.

No problem with Franklin continuing to play T20 and ODIs as he's gone alright there, but no more tests.

 

[NZTailender]

I'd go with Boult-C.Martin-Bracewell-B.Martin-Neesham.



which is stronger - 1. Wagner-Astle or 2. Neesham-Patel?

It's number 2 IMO. Both with the ball and the bat.

But then I mainly just don't like Wagner.

Actually that combo is not a bad one. I'd still rather Wagner than Chris Martin though.

As for the second, Neesham is not better than Wagner with the ball, so I'm guessing thats where your Wagner dislike comes in I'd go with 1 personally.

 

[hendrix]

I remember Franklin being delivered about 3 or 4 125kph long hops by the SL quicks that he left because we'd lost a few wickets to Herath.

He's over-complicating things.

He just needs to be told "Hit the ****ing ball".

 

[straw man]

Tastle will never perform the same role as Vettori. He's not tight enough and it's unlikely as a legspinner that he ever will be.

Bruce Martin is more Vettori-lite IMO.

Tastle is a different style of bowler to Vettori but in a five-man attack it should be fine to have a spinner who is a little random and inconsistent but occasionally takes wickets. Particularly if one of the pace-bowlers can bowl a lot of holding overs like Oram used to (Neesham to do this?).

No doubt Tastle needs to improve and I don't necessarily think he will become good enough to perform this role long term, but it's not out of the question.

Bruce Martin is never going to be good enough to bat 7, so has to be considered as a pure spinner like Patel.

 

[Prince EWS]

Fair point They need a bit of Gillespie-style defense though, as they can attack pretty well.

Yeah, Southee's batting comes under a lot of criticism for under achieving, but he's still averaging 20 with the bat since the start of 2010. I think if anything though his strike rate is too high - he strikes at over 80 in that period which means he's not building a partnership with the set batsman, he's just adding a cheap 20 to the total and then getting out. It makes him useful at nine to hit with the rest of the tail but not ideal to bat eight. A bit like Swanny's batting in a lot of ways.

Bracewell's done nothing at all in Tests with the bat yet but I get the feeling that if just threw the bat like Southee did he'd have similar results and average 20 odd too. He's trying to develop a proper defence and bat more properly so he can build partnerships and become a real Test number 8 as time goes on. Either way I don't think it's a big issue unless Chris Martin is also playing - Wagner can bat, so can Vettori and Astle if they get into the side obviously, and even Patel/Bruce Martin/Boult can add quick runs. Chris Martin at eleven does make Bracewell's slow development as a number eight hurt more, especially with Southee injured.