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Pakistan ATG Team - Open Voting

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
You also went ahead with Fazal instead of the spinner.

All the older aunts in my family remember Fazal with that dreamy eyed look. He was Imran Khan before Imran Khan.

Would you rate Asif Iqbal over Mushtaq Mohammad.
I am a utely aware of the spinner issue. Pakistan has had quite a few but the quality of pace bowling they have had, compared to India for example, has meant that they had lesser roles to play over all in a more balanced attack. Yes you are right about the need fora specialist spinner. The choice would fall between Saqlain and Abdul Qadir for most people although Iqbal Qasim was a terrific spinner as well.

If one chooses Saqlain then he compliments Mushraq's leg spin very well. If on chose Qadir you could drop Mushtaq and include Asif Iqbal in his place.

Purely between Asif and Mushtaq, I would have chosen Asif if there was a specialist spinner in the side so I do prefer Asif Iqbal. I had Mushtaq in the side to balance theatack.

Replacing Fazal to accommodate the specialist spinner does not appeal to me. The medium pacer of the line and length Fabius accuracy type of Fazal, Bedser, Tate, Statham, McGrath etc must be treated as a specialist in his own right like the spinner and has as great a role to play as a tear away fast bowler. If I had to accommodate the specialist spinner and drp a bowler the axe would fall on one of the three genuine quicks. I ran is captain and all Roy Derek he stays. Take your pick between Waqar and Wasim although I know which of the two would be dropped if CC members were selectors

I love Waqar's bowling and his shock value but Wasim would pip him I guess not least because if being the only left handed amongst them. So I would go with CC in choosing between them although CC would drop Fazal anyway :-)

I would not drop Fazal except to replace him with Asif.maybe
 

kyear2

International Coach
I would agree with kyear2



Barnes average Average=21.58, StrikeRate=54 against Australis is not as good as
  • McGrath Average / Strike-Rate. Batsmen where averaging 50+ in McGrath's day while in Barnes day batsmen mostly averaged < 40.
  • Lillee's Average / Strike Rate Against England is better than Barnes Ashes Average/Strike Rate.
  • Australian contemporary Hugh Trumble(ESPN Cricinfo) has a very similar bowling average (21) as Barnes in Ashes test's, but Hugh also opened the batting (21 average). Hugh only played one match against South-Africa which looks to have been a batting fest. Hugh like Barnes was a fast spinner.
  • The Australian allrounder's Monty Noble and Charles Macartney also had
    similar bowling averages to Barnes in the tests they played against Barnes.
    Note: Charles Macartneys over all figures are very similar to Aubrey Faulkners, he did not do as much bowling (Australia did have a better bowling line-up than SA).



Bowling averages in Tests Barnes played against Australia.

One suggestion for I have seen for rating pre World War one batsmen / bowlers is multiple the Batting / Bowling Average by 1.35, doing this the top batsmen average around 50 and the best bowlers average a bit over 20.

If you multiply Barnes figures by 1.35, he would average 13 against SA and 28.5 against Australia. That is very similar to Alec Bedser. Bedser averages 13/14 against India/Pakistan and around 29 against the established cricket nations.
welcome to cw.

I personally don't rate pre WW 1 cricketers as highly as others here, and really think the period between the wars had the first fully competent cricketers who could.succeed in the modern era and stats are commenserate with ours (barring some of minnow beatdowns, though we still get a bit of that today.)
 

L Trumper

State Regular
welcome to cw.

I personally don't rate pre WW 1 cricketers as highly as others here, and really think the period between the wars had the first fully competent cricketers who could.succeed in the modern era and stats are commenserate with ours (barring some of minnow beatdowns, though we still get a bit of that today.)
Why exactly they need to succeed in Modern era? Barnes is the best bowler in his era. He never averaged more than 26 in any series he played in. But you are pretty strong in your opinion of underrating english players, so carry on.
 

kyear2

International Coach
Merely pointing out the truth againts Barnes, who was decent (for the era) againts Australia made hay vs a weak South Africa team that greatly enhanced his stats.
Regarding Barrington and Compton, they were simply not as good as Viv or Lara, and no one thinks they are.
 

fredfertang

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Barnes longevity undoubtedly plays a part in the legendary status that attaches to him, but he must have been a fantastic bowler nonetheless
 

L Trumper

State Regular
Merely pointing out the truth againts Barnes, who was decent (for the era) againts Australia made hay vs a weak South Africa team that greatly enhanced his stats.
Regarding Barrington and Compton, they were simply not as good as Viv or Lara, and no one thinks they are.
Yes, Barrington,Compton is not as good as Viv or Lara but it is lot closer considering both Viv and Lara are playing out of position and doesn't have as great a record as they had at no.3, it'd be lot closer than you think. Also in opening slots Greenidge, Hunte are not on the same level as Hobbs, Hutton. So opening, middle order is not the difference maker. It will cancel each other out or may even tilts in ENG favour. The problem is with England's lower middle order which is not on par with WI.
 

kyear2

International Coach
So it's agreed that Englad has the advantage for the openers, and the W.I have the advantage from #3 - #7 (though very slight for the #3 slot), so overall advantage W.I. (and Aus)
It's the bowling though where Englad falls behind Aus, W.I, Pak and probably S.A as Trueman apart (and he didn't have a great record outside of the U.K) lacks truely top tier performers. Laker was at his best on helpful (wet) pitches, Botham didn't perform that well againts the top team of his era and faded badly in the second half of his career and Larwood has a better first class career than a test one and only had one good series vs England.

Not trying to under rate English players, but just backing up my assertion that so far in this exercise that the top two teams are just a class above the rest.
 

DriveClub

International Regular
So it's agreed that Englad has the advantage for the openers, and the W.I have the advantage from #3 - #7 (though very slight for the #3 slot), so overall advantage W.I. (and Aus)
It's the bowling though where Englad falls behind Aus, W.I, Pak and probably S.A as Trueman apart (and he didn't have a great record outside of the U.K) lacks truely top tier performers. Laker was at his best on helpful (wet) pitches, Botham didn't perform that well againts the top team of his era and faded badly in the second half of his career and Larwood has a better first class career than a test one and only had one good series vs England.

Not trying to under rate English players, but just backing up my assertion that so far in this exercise that the top two teams are just a class above the rest.
Agreed about the English XI
 

harsh.ag

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
I personally don't rate pre WW 1 cricketers as highly as others here, and really think the period between the wars had the first fully competent cricketers who could.succeed in the modern era and stats are commenserate with ours (barring some of minnow beatdowns, though we still get a bit of that today.)
George Headley? :D You rank him as the best of all the Windies bats, if memory serves me right.
 

watson

Banned
A few people have talked about England playing two spinners but I've never considered Barnes to be a spinner. Of course he could spin the ball - by his own admission - and by all accounts his exceptionally large hands and long fingers allowed him to give the ball a tremendous rip. However he also swung the ball prodigiously and generally bowled fast-medium (there are accounts of him bowling "very fast" at times) and whenever I've seen him discussed or selected in all-time teams it's not
been as a spinner but as a part of he seam attack.

Then again, we've had discussions in these parts before about exactly what kind of bowler Barney was, and perhaps the ability to bowl both styles brilliantly is part of his unique greatness.
Doesn't have a lot to do with Pakistani cricket but....

Bernard Hollowood played with SF Barnes for Staffordshire. Here he is quoting his father Albert Hollowood (1970) who also played with SF Barnes during "Syd's golden years";

“Oh yes, he could ‘em all, but he got his wickets with fast leg-breaks. Marvelous, absolutely marvellous, he was. Fast leg-breaks and always on a length.” Others, Barnes included, have claimed that he bowled every known ball except the googly – swingers, off breaks, top spinners, the lot. But undoubtably his chef d’oeuvre was the leg break. He took a long run, a bounding springy run, and as his arm came over in a perfect action, mid on and mid off could hear the snap of his long fingers as they rolled and squeezed the ball into its revolutionary parabola. There has been no one like him. O’Reilly could bend them from leg, but not with Barnes’s consistency or devil. Douglas Wright could bowl fastish leg breaks, but not on the length that destroys and goes on destroying.
(The Picador Book of Cricket, page 37-38)
Incidently, Douglas Wright was a right-arm medium/leg-break bowler.

So, in the main, Barnes was the English version of Bill O'Reilly, although Barnes could bowl quicker when he wanted to. However, he didn't want to most of the time according to the above eye-witness account because his 'chef d’oeuvre' was the 'fast leg-break' - spun using his third finger, not 'over-the-wrist' like Warne or Benaud.
 

The Sean

Cricketer Of The Year
It seems the eyewitness accounts are consistent in some ways and vary in others. All note, as we know, that Barnes could spin the ball prodigiously, and all also note that he could bowl fast and swing it if be wanted to as well. It seems the earlier in his career that you hear accounts of him, the faster he was.

I still don't consider him to be a "spinner" in the conventional sense - he was for most of his career considerably faster than O'Reilly or Wright - but as I've noted before his ability to combine pace with spin the way he did must make his value to a team very high.
 

The Sean

Cricketer Of The Year
As Watson says though, this has moved well beyond Pakistan so perhaps all this discussion could be moved to a general all-time XI discussion thread, assuming there is one?
 

watson

Banned
Cricketweb Pakistan All Time XI
Hanif Mohammad
Saeed Anwar
Younis Khan
Javed Miandad
Inzamam-ul-Haq
Mushtaq Mohammad
Imran Khan *
Rashid Latif +
Wasim Akram
Fazal Mahmood
Waqar Younis

Mohammad Yousuf
Saqlain Mushtaq

Had a really nice Christmas break with the kids and family - so thanks for calling the final ATG team kyear2!
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
Doesn't have a lot to do with Pakistani cricket but....

Bernard Hollowood played with SF Barnes for Staffordshire. Here he is quoting his father Albert Hollowood (1970) who also played with SF Barnes during "Syd's golden years";



Incidently, Douglas Wright was a right-arm medium/leg-break bowler.

So, in the main, Barnes was the English version of Bill O'Reilly, although Barnes could bowl quicker when he wanted to. However, he didn't want to most of the time according to the above eye-witness account because his 'chef d’oeuvre' was the 'fast leg-break' - spun using his third finger, not 'over-the-wrist' like Warne or Benaud.
The basic differences between Barnes and O'Rielly were two.

The first a strength of the Australian as emphatically used by Bradman in the argument as to which of the two was the greatest bowler of all time - he bowled the google which Barnes didn't. Barnes was very old when told about this (the missing googly in his armoury in comparison to the Australian ) and he famously answered "I never needed it"

The second difference was the Englishman's deadliest, most devilish and well nigh unplayable delivery. With the shiny new ball he would bowl his fast leg break with the seam held at right angles to his long fingers so that when the sharply revolving ball left his hand it travelled with the seam up right. This ball swung in to the right handed batsmen, starting its flight from around the off stump line it pitched on leg stump and as the batsman squared up to play the down-the-leg line it cut/spun viciously in the opposite direction heading for the top of off stump.

Till today it is considered the most difficult ball imaginable for a batsman to cope with. Only Bedser in the immediate post war years bowled anything similar and he had Bradman, no less, in quite a spot of bother as well recorded elsewhere.

Barnes is the only bowler known to have had such a delivery that was a leg break and yet maintained the seam's integrity in a manner to swing the ball in. That alone is a feat at which the mind boggles. The fact that the spin on the ball was so vicious that after landing on the good length spot on the leg stump line it broke back towards the off is nearly fantastical. His fingers must have been made of steel and his action which ensured the seam travelled right must have been honed to perfection. The fact that he was bowling with awesome control so late into life that international players 30 years his juniors were gaping with dropped jaws is nothing to be scoffed at.

Of course the South Africans were easier opposition but people tend to forget that his figures have to be seen in the context of those of his illustrious contemporaries from both England and Australia.

More importantly, just look at his figures in the Ashes series.

In just 19 Tests, Barnes took the fifer 12 times against the Arch enemy and a total of 106 wickets at 21.58 each

It is okay to say, as Bradman did, that Oreilly was the greater bowler but it is certainly disrespectful to arguably (at least) the greatest bowler of all time and certainly the greatest of the first half century of the game to demean his stature by running down conditions, quality of opposition etc.

In an interview the other day, Boycott was spot on when he said, acknowledging Sachin's place amongst the game's greatest, that it would be disrespectful to some others if we were to declare that Sachin's was the greatest batsman of all time. All of us need to be more respectful of the history of the game and its legendary iconic players.

Bradman too, when suggesting that O'Reilly was the better of the two was talking of "who was the greatest bowler of all time" that alone shows respect towards the great Englishman. Lets at least emulate the Don in this respect.
 

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