Greatest ODI batsman of all time

[ankitj]

Gilchrist was a specialist opener. He batted there most of his career. .

Well... I'm sure you know what I meant. If you want to argue this way, then Dhoni is also a specialist keeper. Always kept in all games he played. So...

Probably with an all pace attack one can get away with a less than stellar keeper, but with a top class spinner, one needs the better keeper to take advantage of the half chances and to be better suited to standing up to the stumps.

I'm not clear why a poorer erratic spinner is any easier to keep against.

 

[uvelocity]

I've stepped into a parallel universe where threads about tendulkar are turned into threads about everything else rather than the other way around

 

[stephen]

You're seriously overrating Jayasuriya here, and you're forgetting that Tendulkar was a very aggressive batsman in ODIs too.

Anwar, Ganguly, Hayden etc... all better openers than either Jayasuriya or Gilchrist.

I'm not overrating Jayasuriya. He played on for too long (mainly because his side needed him) but he changed the way that people thought about opening batsmen in ODIs. The truth is that for a world XI, you should have one 90+ SR opening bat and one 40+ averaging bat. Tendulkar was the 40+ bat and of the 90+ SR batsmen, Gilchrist and Jayasuriya were the best. Gilly was a touch better, but Jaya was extremely good.

To partner Tendulkar, purely on batting terms, I'd take Gilchrist over Anwar, Ganguly or Hayden. I think people underestmate just how many games Gilly took away from the opposition by hitting a 50 in the first ten overs, which really set up the game for the rest of the side.

 

[stephen]

I've stepped into a parallel universe where threads about tendulkar are turned into threads about everything else rather than the other way around

 

[hendrix]

I'm not overrating Jayasuriya. He played on for too long (mainly because his side needed him)but he changed the way that people thought about opening batsmen in ODIs but he changed the way that people thought about opening batsmen in ODIs

That he did, but that doesn't mean he was the best at it.

The truth is that for a world XI, you should have one 90+ SR opening bat and one 40+ averaging bat. Tendulkar was the 40+ bat and of the 90+ SR batsmen, Gilchrist and Jayasuriya were the best. Gilly was a touch better, but Jaya was extremely good.

Why should you have one with a 90+ strike rate? Tendulkar's was 86, and when he got in it only got better. He was damn aggressive. He paired with Ganguly and Dravid to great effect; he was the super aggressive batsman.

Anwar's was 80 odd, and again it only got better the more he got in. Pair that with an average of near 40 and look at some of the innings he's played.

He's just far and away a better batsman than Gilchrist.

I think people underestmate just how many games Gilly took away from the opposition by hitting a 50 in the first ten overs, which really set up the game for the rest of the side.

Look, you could say this about almost any of the batsmen listed above. There's also the fact that Gilchrist had Ponting, Bevan etc behind him to actually finish the matches off. Other batsmen didn't.

Great opener but he wasn't one of the top 2 openers of all time.

 

[smash84]

yeah....you pretty much sum up my thoughts too

 

[weldone]

No mention of Lara in this thread (especially when we are discussing AT ODI XIs) is disappointing. Yes, he was a better batsman in test cricket overall perhaps but we so conveniently forget the first part of his ODI batting career. When he used to bat at top 3 (and he batted there for quite a few years) he was very very clearly the best ODI batsman in the world - miles ahead of Tendulkar. Later on he wanted to sacrifice his top-order spot for the team (which was a stupid decision as it didn't help the team either).

Some say his stats aren't good enough. OK here's a task for you:

Among all ODI batsmen of all-time make a list of batsmen who made 4000+ runs batting at top 3 with a 43+ average and a 80+ strike rate.

You think the list shouldn't be too tiny, don't you?

You will be surprised to know that the list comprises of only 2 names - Sachin Tendulkar and Brian Lara. You'll be more surprised to know this:

Even though they are the only 2 batsmen who scored 4000+ runs at top 3 with 43+ average and 80+ strike rate, they both actually scored 6000+ runs at top 3 with 45+ average and 81+ strike rate. So the point is even though they are the only 2 who make that list, they both make the list very comfortably. Lara was such an unstoppable force in the first part of his OD career.

Haha probably I bored you all with stats by now. But opening the innings with Lara and Tendulkar gives you a left-hand right-hand combination, and gives you an opening combination which is technically very solid in spite of being aggressive - something which can't be said about Jayasuriya or Gilchrist IMO. I shall rely more on such a technically solid opening combination when my team is up against top opening bowlers. Plus opening with Lara lets you play Dhoni at no. 6 and add someone like Klusener or Kapil at no. 7.

I see nothing wrong with this team for example:

Brian Lara
Sachin Tendulkar
Ricky Ponting / Zaheer Abbas
Viv Richards *
Michael Bevan
Mahendra Dhoni +
Lance Klusener
Wasim Akram
Joel Garner / Richard Hadlee
Glenn McGrath
Muttiah Muralitharan

If Kapil plays at 7 in place of Klusener, Pollock could be added at no. 8 dragging Wasim down to no. 9 and dropping the the Garner / Hadlee option altogether.

...but the main point stands.

 

[weldone]

More on the first part of Lara's ODI career...

I've dug up some ICC rankings from the 90s (when the opening bowlers around the world weren't very shabby were they? ). He really dominated the ODI scene for a long time. In fact he really dominated (and this is coming from a Tendulkar fanboy) for as long as he batted at top 3.

Here are the rankings:

As of 31-Dec-1993:
1 863 B.C. Lara

As of 31-Dec-1994:
1 826 B.C. Lara
2 804 S.R. Tendulkar

As of 31-Dec-1995:
1 880 B.C. Lara
2 804 S.R. Tendulkar

As of 31-Dec-1996:
1 891 B.C. Lara
2 876 S.R. Tendulkar

As of 31-Dec-1997:
1 883 B.C. Lara
2 852 M.G. Bevan

Only in 1998 Tendulkar overtook him in the rankings.
As of 31-Dec-1998:
1 887 S.R. Tendulkar
2 886 B.C. Lara
3 876 M.G. Bevan

And surprise surprise!!! 1998 is the same year when Lara started to bat at no. 4 or below.

If one is to draw a conclusion - Brian Charles Lara was a superlative top order ODI batsman..

 

[ankitj]

Batting in top 3 and scoring very well. Which is the cause and which is the effect in Lara's case?

 

[stephen]

Brian Charles Lara was a superlative top order ODI batsman..

I'm in complete agreement. Lara definitely deserves to be in discussions around AT ODI teams. The problem is where to fit him. I really like him opening with Tendulkar, but then you have to weaken the team by either playing Gilchrist out of position or having Dhoni as your gloveman or by dropping Ponting (I still rate Ponting as being more deserving of a spot than Lara).

 

[weldone]

Batting in top 3 and scoring very well. Which is the cause and which is the effect in Lara's case?

Batting in top 3 is the cause and scoring very well is the effect definitely. He took charge of the innings from the start, and he was comfortable there (just like Tendulkar was).

How easy is it to dominate from the lower-middle order when your top 3 are the mighty Sherwin Campbell, Ridley Jacobs and Adrian Griffith and you come in after your team is 25/3 after 11 overs chasing a 250+ score?

 

[weldone]

I'm in complete agreement. Lara definitely deserves to be in discussions around AT ODI teams. The problem is where to fit him. I really like him opening with Tendulkar, but then you have to weaken the team by either playing Gilchrist out of position or having Dhoni as your gloveman or by dropping Ponting (I still rate Ponting as being more deserving of a spot than Lara).

I see nothing wrong with this team for example:

Brian Lara
Sachin Tendulkar
Ricky Ponting / Zaheer Abbas
Viv Richards *
Michael Bevan
Mahendra Dhoni +
Lance Klusener
Wasim Akram
Joel Garner / Richard Hadlee
Glenn McGrath
Muttiah Muralitharan

If Kapil plays at 7 in place of Klusener, Pollock could be added at no. 8 dragging Wasim down to no. 9 and dropping the the Garner / Hadlee option altogether.

...but the main point stands.

.....

 

[stephen]

The problem is that I think that team would be beaten by the one I listed earlier.

In addition (and this is only slightly related), I think people are underestimating just how good having Imran in the side at #7 would be. There would be no respite for the opposition, batting or bowling. Klusener was extremely good, but I rate Imran ahead of him for purposes of this team.

 

[weldone]

Some of his ODI innings while batting at top 3:

This match-winning 128 against Wasim-Waqar in Durban:
HowSTAT! ODI Scorecard

This match-winning 111* against Donald-De Villiers in Bloomfontein:
HowSTAT! ODI Scorecard

This match-wnning 114 against Wasim-Waqar in Sabina Park:
HowSTAT! ODI Scorecard

This match-winning 95* against Wasim-Waqar in Queen's Park Oval:
HowSTAT! ODI Scorecard

Match-winning 153 against Waqar in Sharjah:
HowSTAT! ODI Scorecard

This match-winning 139 against McGrath-Warne in Queen's Park Oval:
HowSTAT! ODI Scorecard

This match-winning 169 against Muralitharan in Sharjah:
HowSTAT! ODI Scorecard

This match-winning 111 against Pollock (and Woolmer's laptop ) in World Cup Quarter Final:
HowSTAT! ODI Scorecard

This match-winning 102 against the mighty Aussies:
HowSTAT! ODI Scorecard

This match-winning 103* against Wasim-Saqlain in W.A.C.A.
HowSTAT! ODI Scorecard

Plus many many other match-winning knocks against lesser bowling attacks (like NZ, Eng, India etc)..

Nah, I seriously can't think of anyone more worthy of partnering Tendulkar in the AT OD XI.

 

[weldone]

In addition (and this is only slightly related), I think people are underestimating just how good having Imran in the side at #7 would be. There would be no respite for the opposition, batting or bowling. Klusener was extremely good, but I rate Imran ahead of him for purposes of this team.

Imran at no. 7 in ODIs? Noooo. As much as I love the man, I don't want my all-time side scoring 50 runs in the last 10 overs with him scoring a 20 not out off 35 deliveries lol.

#inb4smalienters

 

[Anil]

Imran at no. 7 in ODIs? Noooo. As much as I love the man, I don't want my all-time side scoring 50 runs in the last 10 overs with him scoring a 20 not out off 35 deliveries lol.

imran was a very aggressive lower middle order batsman and he was a good enough player to change his approach based on the situation...

 

[weldone]

imran was a very aggressive lower middle order batsman and he was a good enough player to change his approach based on the situation...

No he wasn't.

Full marks to him as a bowler. Full marks to him as a captain. Half marks to him as a test-match batsman or a no. 3 ODI batsman. But absolutely no marks to him when we are discussing lower-order batting in ODIs - that too in an All-Time team. Very aggressive lower-middle order batsman in ODIs? No, he wasn't. I am a big fan, but lower-middle order ODI batting is the last thing I'll support him for. Please. He's not 1/10th as destructive a batsman as that no. 7 position demands. He won't win me a single game batting there. He'll lose me matches where we are chasing 65 runs in the last 10 with 5 wickets in hand.

I'd sooner take Angelo Matthews' or Jacob Oram's batting at no. 7 than Imran Khan's (disregarding their bowling for a moment)...and Klusener was quite a few notches above them batting-wise.

I am a big fan of Imran Khan, but a blind fanboy I can't be.

 

[Mike5181]

Filntoff and Klusener > Imran for an ODI ATG number seven spot.

 

[weldone]

Filntoff and Klusener > Imran for an ODI ATG number seven spot.

Yes, Kapil and Pollock too.

 

[Fusion]

Yes, Kapil and Pollock too.

You are overcompensating for those that may be overrating Imran by going the other way and underrating him. Imran was a smart and skilled ODI batsman. He could adapt to the situation well. His stats may not compare to today's "finishers" because the game has changed, but he does compare favorably to Kapil at the 7 or 8 batting position. Consider:

Imran batting at 7 or 8: 33 innings, SR 83.53, Ave 25.59.
Kapil batting at 7 or 8: 80 innings, SR 88.06, Ave 24.00.

Obviously Kapil is the more experienced lower order batsman and IMO the better lower order batsman. However, is he that much better at that position that you pick him over Imran as the AR? I would pick Imran based on his superior bowling, leadership, and even the fact that he could comfortably move up the order if one of the middle order batsman got hurt.

Edit: Here is the same comparison for Imran/Pollock:

Imran batting at 7 or 8: 33 innings, SR 83.53, Ave 25.59.
Pollock batting at 7 or 8: 155 innings, SR 87.03, Ave 26.20.

As with the Kapil comparison, Pollock the far more experienced lower order batsman and to many the better at that position. But again, is he that much better to be picked as the AR instead of Imran?