Greatest ODI batsman of all time

[Dan]

To me, the debate between Gilchrist and Dhoni doesn't come down to batting or wicketkeeping - it's about bowling.

Let's assume we've got an XI that looks somewhat like this:

1. Tendulkar
2. -
3. Ponting
4. Viv
5. Miandad
6. Bevan
7. -
8. Wasim
9. Garner
10. Bond
11. Murali

(These are primarily placeholders; no debate required about the particular batsmen).

With a line-up like this, you need another frontline bowling option, and you need a wicketkeeper. Your options are Dhoni at 7 and one of Watson & Jayasuriya opening, or Gilchrist opening and one of Klusener, Symonds, Flintoff, Cairns, Imran, Kapil, or even Shakib.

To me, in this situation you go with Gilchrist opening and keeping, because while him and Dhoni are pretty much locked on par as ODI wicketkeeper-batsmen, it lets you select a stronger fifth bowling option (because I don't want to rely on Bevan/Viv/Sachin for 10 cheap overs against the Martian XI).

If you drop Miandad or Ponting from that XI, you can play Dhoni at 5, Bevan at 6 and open with Amla or Turner and not worry about a lack of bowling.

To me, that ATG ODI XI looks better with Gilchrist opening and Kapil at 7 then with Watson opening and Dhoni at 7.

 

[hendrix]

^ I would have Saeed Anwar opening with Tendulkar.

drop Miandad and have an allrounder (probably Lance Klusener) at 5 or 6.

 

[hendrix]

and Dhoni gets ahead of Gilchrist for me.

1. Tendulkar
2. Anwar
3. Ponting
4. Viv
5. Klusener
6. Bevan
7. Dhoni
8. Wasim
9. Garner
10. Bond
11. Murali.

Perfect team.

 

[stephen]

There's a case to be made for picking Dhoni over Gilchrist based on his batting role in the team. However, there's absolutely no case whatsoever to pick Dhoni over Gilchrist on the basis of glovework. When you're talking about a keeper who has to keep to Murali, Garner, Wasim and Bond, the choice is really a no brainer.

Now it may be worth picking Dhoni in the middle order on the basis of his batting alone, but anyone who picks him over Gilchrist for the keeping position is weakening the team unnecessarily.

Also, most of the best all-rounders have been lower-middle order batsmen, so Gilchrist allows far more flexibility in that area.

Gilchrist would be picked behind only Viv and Tendulkar in my AT ODI XI, which looks like this:

Gilchrist+
Tendulkar
Ponting
Richards
Bevan
Hussey
Imran (c)
Akram
Garner
McGrath
Murali

If that XI couldn't get it done in all conditions against all opponents I don't know who would. You might argue that the tail is pretty long, but I'd be surprised if the tail ever got a bat. And if the tail needed strengthening you could always sub out Murali for Saqlain and/or McGrath for Hadlee.

 

[hendrix]

There's a case to be made for picking Dhoni over Gilchrist based on his batting role in the team. However, there's absolutely no case whatsoever to pick Dhoni over Gilchrist on the basis of glovework. When you're talking about a keeper who has to keep to Murali, Garner, Wasim and Bond, the choice is really a no brainer.

I agree that Gilchrist is by far the superior gloveman, but I think Dhoni's keeping in ODI cricket has been pretty adequate, and at his peak he was excellent keeping to the spinners.

Technically he's never been great and has always relied on his quick hands and good eye, but the burden of mass overs and responsibility are what's buggered him in test cricket. He should never have been a test keeper, really. 50 overs was probably the peak of his concentration.

 

[Satyanash89]

I agree that Gilchrist is by far the superior gloveman, but I think Dhoni's keeping in ODI cricket has been pretty adequate, and at his peak he was excellent keeping to the spinners.

Technically he's never been great and has always relied on his quick hands and good eye, but the burden of mass overs and responsibility are what's buggered him in test cricket. He should never have been a test keeper, really. 50 overs was probably the peak of his concentration.

Yeah, he's been far from terrible in ODIs... nowhere near as good as Gilchrist, but good enough. Id have Jayasuriya/Sehwag opening with Dhoni as WK

 

[SJS]

It is interesting to see the expression "pretty adequate" for someone one wishes to include in an all time world XI as a wicket keeper. Just goes to strengthen the point as to how much we have devalued this vital specialist position. Wonder why Kallis and Sobers should not be considered pretty adequate new ball bowlers and Mushtaq and Illingworth as pretty adequate spinners and dispense with all specialist bowlers to have a world XI that bats down to number eleven. In fact the problem of countries like India about often not having world class openers for both new ball and to open the batting would be forgotten for ever. People like Dravidian have opened with a double century and a 400 run opening partnership to boot. Come to think of it Dravidian could be opener and wicket keeper and poor Hazare or Vishy might get a look in the packed middle order :-)

I mention the names of Mushtaq, Illingworth etc just because the rare the ones that quickly come to mi d not because one couldn't think if better examples to make the point if one dwelt over it

 

[hendrix]

It is interesting to see the expression "pretty adequate" for someone one wishes to include in an all time world XI as a wicket keeper. Just goes to strengthen the point as to how much we have devalued this vital specialist position

Believe me, noone hates poor keeping more than me, but i'm only talking about ODI cricket here.

BTW, even if I did pick Gilchrist over Dhoni, I'd still want him batting at 7, with Anwar opening with Sachin.

 

[Satyanash89]

It is interesting to see the expression "pretty adequate" for someone one wishes to include in an all time world XI as a wicket keeper. Just goes to strengthen the point as to how much we have devalued this vital specialist position.

Nah... its a simple equation for me... imo, Greebidge, Anwar, Sehwag, Jayasuriya can do as good a job as Gilchrist opening. Dhoni is pretty much the best finisher ever along with Bevan. Gilly is a better keeper but Dhoni's lower order batting provides more value imo

 

[Red]

To me, the debate between Gilchrist and Dhoni doesn't come down to batting or wicketkeeping - it's about bowling.

Let's assume we've got an XI that looks somewhat like this:

1. Tendulkar
2. -
3. Ponting
4. Viv
5. Miandad
6. Bevan
7. -
8. Wasim
9. Garner
10. Bond
11. Murali

(These are primarily placeholders; no debate required about the particular batsmen).

With a line-up like this, you need another frontline bowling option, and you need a wicketkeeper. Your options are Dhoni at 7 and one of Watson & Jayasuriya opening, or Gilchrist opening and one of Klusener, Symonds, Flintoff, Cairns, Imran, Kapil, or even Shakib.

To me, in this situation you go with Gilchrist opening and keeping, because while him and Dhoni are pretty much locked on par as ODI wicketkeeper-batsmen, it lets you select a stronger fifth bowling option (because I don't want to rely on Bevan/Viv/Sachin for 10 cheap overs against the Martian XI).

If you drop Miandad or Ponting from that XI, you can play Dhoni at 5, Bevan at 6 and open with Amla or Turner and not worry about a lack of bowling.

To me, that ATG ODI XI looks better with Gilchrist opening and Kapil at 7 then with Watson opening and Dhoni at 7.

I agree completely.

- A. Gilchrist
- S. Tendulkar
- V. Richards
- R. Ponting
- D. Jones
- J. Miandad
- K. Dev
- R. Hadlee / I. Khan / W. Akram
- S. Warne / Murali
- J. Garner
- A. Donald

 

[stephen]

Nah... its a simple equation for me... imo, Greebidge, Anwar, Sehwag, Jayasuriya can do as good a job as Gilchrist opening. Dhoni is pretty much the best finisher ever along with Bevan. Gilly is a better keeper but Dhoni's lower order batting provides more value imo

Hussey is just as good a finisher as Dhoni and is a gun fielder - better in the field than Sehwag and Jayasuriya (I don't remember how good Anwar was in the field).

The thing about the keeping position is that a single catch or dropped catch can turn the course of a tournament (see South Africa's plight in the 1999 World Cup). You want the best gloveman you can get and Gilchrist is it. He's as good as Sehwag, Jayasuriya or Anwar as opener but he's a better keeper than Dhoni.

I'd take the combination of Gilchrist/Hussey vs Sehwag/Dhoni, Jayasuriya/Dhoni or Anwar/Dhoni any day of the week.

The other thing that Gilchrist allows for is to bring in a genuine strike bowler like Imran at #7, giving the AT side 5 genuine bowlers without weakening the batting. Jaya's bowling, while quite useful was never at the level of a specialist bowler. He'd be feasted upon by the Martian XI batting.

 

[ankitj]

SJS's auto complete in overdrive. Dravidian

 

[ankitj]

Even as a specialist batsman, Dhoni finds a place in AT XI. He is firmly in 5 best ODI batsman for mine.

And BTW, the argument of need for specialists can also go against Gilchrist as opener ahead of other opening alternatives.

 

[stephen]

Even as a specialist batsman, Dhoni finds a place in AT XI. He is firmly in 5 best ODI batsman for mine.

And BTW, the argument of need for specialists can also go against Gilchrist as opener ahead of other opening alternatives.

Gilchrist was a specialist opener. He batted there most of his career.

Most successful ODI teams have had one aggressive opener and one more steady opener. Gilchrist and Jaya were the best of the aggressive opening options.

There is a case to be made to pick Dhoni as a specialist batsman in the AT XI. He certainly had the batting ability. There might be some question marks over how good he was in the field, but with both Ponting and Viv in the same side that might not come into play.

 

[morgieb]

For mine, Dhoni is better but I'd take Gilly in an ATXI. Balance is like that.

 

[morgieb]

Gilchrist
Tendulkar
Viv
Ponting
Jones
Bevan
Klusener
Wasim
Garner
Muralitharan
McGrath

 

[cnerd123]

What is this logic that if you have a strong bowling attack, you need a good keeper to keep to them?

Surely if the bowling attack is so strong, they'll produce a lot of opportunities, and you get away with an adequate keeper?

 

[Daemon]

Peeps are seriously underrating Dhoni here. Master of the chase. Extremely quick between the wickets, can shift between taking quick singles and building a partnership while scoring at just under a run a ball to taking on the bowlers in the last few overs and completely wrecking them. All you could ask for in a lower order batsmen, and then you have his keeping and captaincy to boot.

 

[kyear2]

Probably with an all pace attack one can get away with a less than stellar keeper, but with a top class spinner, one needs the better keeper to take advantage of the half chances and to be better suited to standing up to the stumps.

 

[hendrix]

Gilchrist and Jaya were the best of the aggressive opening options.

You're seriously overrating Jayasuriya here, and you're forgetting that Tendulkar was a very aggressive batsman in ODIs too.

Anwar, Ganguly, Hayden etc... all better openers than either Jayasuriya or Gilchrist.