The Case for Kallis

[thierry henry]

Kallis is the best cricketer of his era and one of the best few of all time. Perceptions of him are already starting to change and in 10 years everyone will remember him as such. I love it.

 

[hendrix]

I don't think Ponting is quite in the same class as Tendulkar, Lara and Kallis.

 

[centurymaker]

I don't think Ponting is quite in the same class as Tendulkar, Lara and Kallis.

why? because his reflexes have deteriorated as he has aged as a batsman, thereby not allowing him to play fast bowlers like he used to?
come on...

short-term memory bias is affecting people's perception of these great batsmen.

 

[Black_Warrior]

^ Nothing new.. I was just about to say how fascinating I find this change in perspectives based on a memory that goes back perhaps 6 months.. There was a time when on this very forum you would have people argue Ponting is better than Tendulkar and Lara..and now Ponting is not in the same class as Kallis.

For me Tendulkar, Ponting and Lara are the best batsmen of our generation very very closely followed by Kallis.

 

[hendrix]

why? because his reflexes have deteriorated as he has aged as a batsman, thereby not allowing him to play fast bowlers like he used to?
come on...

short-term memory bias is affecting people's perception of these great batsmen.

I knew I should've added an addendum.
No, it's not because of recent form.

He's a great player, no doubt about that, but he had the advantage of playing most of his career in the best team of his generation. He has also never achieved the spectacular feats that Tendulkar (sheer runs, longevity), Lara (individual effort in a crap team, record breaking personal scores, stunning strokeplay) or Kallis (he has 282 wickets, ffs) have.

These things are always going to be personal, and although he's played some bruising innings (most memorably in ODIs, for me), he just hasn't been as enchanting as the others. I actually prefer Steve Waugh.

 

[Black_Warrior]

I knew I should've added an addendum.
No, it's not because of recent form.

He's a great player, no doubt about that, but he had the advantage of playing most of his career in the best team of his generation. He has also never achieved the spectacular feats that Tendulkar (sheer runs, longevity ), Lara (individual effort in a crap team, record breaking personal scores, stunning strokeplay) or Kallis (he has 282 wickets, ffs) have.

These things are always going to be personal, and although he's played some bruising innings (most memorably in ODIs, for me), he just hasn't been as enchanting as the others. I actually prefer Steve Waugh.

Define sheer amount of runs and longevity

Ponting has over 13000 Test runs, well more than Lara and has played 160 plus test matches.

As for Kallis having 282 wickets, we are talking about them as batsmen.

Viv Richards also played in the best team of his generation..no one holds that against him.

 

[Xuhaib]

I can understand that every cricketer no matter how great has weaknesses and you can find genuine criticism against anyone but pure dumb points like "Kallis bats selfishly" is just taking the piss.. This man battled such tremendous pain in order to save South Africa a test match against India 2 years ago..he batted twice in the current test match at the cost of aggravating his injury in order to save his team the test match..if that's being selfish..hail selfish players.

The one thing about Kallis which I have observed over the years is that he has improved tremendously over the years..he has changed his game and improved his skills, a hallmark of a truly great sportsman..there was a time when Kallis seemed to score those big hundreds against the Mervyn Dillons of the world and went AWOL against the McGraths or Warnes..but I think over the last few years..that has changed..He is a lot more assertive as a batsman, part of it might be the influence of his IPL stint but I find that he tends to raise his hand and score that century in big games for South Africa against quality bowling attacks...as his knock in England earlier this year or the century in the first test match here in Australia suggested.

The man now is all class!!

I do believe Kallis mediocre records against Warne and Mcgrath will always be used against him whenever there will be discussions on all time great players not for me I already have him penciled as 3rd best batsman of this era behind Tendy and BC Lara.

Also thought he looked second best in his duels with Shoaib and Flintoff maybe he did get over odd by bowlers with dominating personalities?

 

[centurymaker]

around 2008-2009, kallis wasn't even considered an ATG batsman.
Now all of a sudden, a lot of people (perhaps ones who are still in their teens ) are rating him above Ponting, and some even above lara and tendulkar.

 

[Black_Warrior]

Also thought he looked second best in his duels with Shoaib and Flintoff maybe he did get over odd by bowlers with dominating personalities?

You know that's a good point...I guess that's why some of the critics say what they do...

 

[Black_Warrior]

around 2008-2009, kallis wasn't even considered an ATG batsman.
Now all of a sudden, a lot of people (perhaps ones who are still in their teens ) are rating him above Ponting, and some even above lara and tendulkar.

Most people base their opinions on a memory that goes back just 1 test match..maybe 2 test matches..

So Michael Clarke is the best batsman in the world followed closely by Hashim Amla, Jacques Kallis. Once Sanga scores some centuries in Australia this summer, he will be better than Lara too.

 

[hendrix]

Define sheer amount of runs and longevity

Ponting has over 13000 Test runs, well more than Lara and has played 160 plus test matches.

As for Kallis having 282 wickets, we are talking about them as batsmen.

Viv Richards also played in the best team of his generation..no one holds that against him.

I'm not comparing Viv Richards to anyone though.

What I'm saying is that each of them have some special characteristic about them that sets them apart from other batsmen with good averages (e.g. Dravid, Sehwag, Chanderpaul, potentially Hussey).

For Tendulkar it's the fact that he's the leading run scorer and he's maintained a career for 23+ years.

For Lara it's those individual batting feats where he's almost single-handedly carried a team, as well as those highest score records.

Kallis has performed the same or better with the bat as all three, and has not let the fact that he's an all rounder affect his batting. Yes, we're only talking about batting but it's still a factor when you consider the time spent practising each discipline and the sheer stress of maintaining both capabilities, especially when he's good enough to have called quits on his bowling if he'd wanted to.

Ponting's only special characteristic, to me at least, is the way he can bully a bowling attack. But, well, so can the other three. The fact that he's managed to conceal a technical deficiency by aggressively getting his pad outside off stump is cool, but it doesn't endear me to thinking of him as on par with the other three either. When those guys are in, they just look perfect. Ponting looks great but just not as classy.

Again, it's a personal thing and I'm not going to expect everyone to agree with me.

 

[centurymaker]

You know that's a good point...I guess that's why some of the critics say what they do...

he barely stood out as a batsman until the last indian tour in 2010/11

 

[centurymaker]

.
Once Sanga scores some centuries in Australia this summer, he will be better than Lara too.

They won't realize that Aus will be without their best bowler Pattingson (or their quickest bowler cummings or even Harris etc..)

 

[Black_Warrior]

I'm not comparing Viv Richards to anyone though.

What I'm saying is that each of them have some special characteristic about them that sets them apart from other batsmen with good averages (e.g. Dravid, Sehwag, Chanderpaul, potentially Hussey).

For Tendulkar it's the fact that he's the leading run scorer and he's maintained a career for 23+ years.

For Lara it's those individual batting feats where he's almost single-handedly carried a team, as well as those highest score records.

Kallis has performed the same or better with the bat as all three, and has not let the fact that he's an all rounder affect his batting. Yes, we're only talking about batting but it's still a factor when you consider the time spent practising each discipline and the sheer stress of maintaining both capabilities, especially when he's good enough to have called quits on his bowling if he'd wanted to.

Ponting's only special characteristic, to me at least, is the way he can bully a bowling attack. But, well, so can the other three. The fact that he's managed to conceal a technical deficiency by aggressively getting his pad outside off stump is cool, but it doesn't endear me to thinking of him as on par with the other three either. When those guys are in, they just look perfect. Ponting looks great but just not as classy.

Again, it's a personal thing and I'm not going to expect everyone to agree with me.

Fair enough.. I understand your reasons..in fact I agree with your point about each of them having a special characteristic..
For me their special characteristics are
Tendulkar - Sheer amount of runs, timing, temperament, shot range
Lara - Timing, Class, Temperament, shot range
Ponting - Sheer amount of runs and the fact that at his peak he outscored both Tendulkar and Lara..he was getting more centuries than them...There was a time when I did not consider Ponting even in the same league as Dravid or Inzamam..but that period from 2001 to 2006..he was phenomenal..That period and the 156 at Ashes 2005 against Flintoff and Harmisson changed my view of him..

 

[hendrix]

but that period from 2001 to 2006..he was phenomenal..That period and the 156 at Ashes 2005 against Flintoff and Harmisson changed my view of him..

that was pretty awesome.

 

[kyear2]

I don't think Ponting is quite in the same class as Tendulkar, Lara and Kallis.

And I don't rate Kallis quite in the same class as a batsman as Lara, Tendulkar or Ponting. Serious case of short term memories in here. There was a time when the discussion was Ponting, Dravid or Lara. Let's not judge an entire career based on the past two years.
Kallis is still above Dravid, Sangakkara and any other batsmen of the era, just below the priven big three.

 

[Cricketismylife]

And I don't rate Kallis quite in the same class as a batsman as Lara, Tendulkar or Ponting. Serious case of short term memories in here. There was a time when the discussion was Ponting, Dravid or Lara. Let's not judge an entire career based on the past two years. Kallis is still above Dravid, Sangakkara and any other batsmen of the era, just below the priven big three.

Feel free to look at Kallis' record from before 2 years ago. You might find he was scoring centuries and winning matches before then.

 

[Cabinet96]

Being a 5 day game, I'd be amazed if a career strike rate (bearing in mind it is just that, and will vary between games and has actually gone up over the years) of 46 or so lead to South Africa missing out on victories. I can understand people finding him boring, but you can't deny his effectiveness.

What I always find perplexing is that on this forum I've heard loads of cries about Kallis' slow scoring, but hardly any about Dravid's, who scoring rate is actually lower than Kallis'. I don't know if I'm missing something obvious....

 

[Cricketismylife]

What I always find perplexing is that on this forum I've heard loads of cries about Kallis' slow scoring, but hardly any about Dravid's, who scoring rate is actually lower than Kallis'. I don't know if I'm missing something obvious....

Maybe it's because Dravid plays for a more high profile country, and also has nearly always done well in English conditions, and England control a lot of the media.

The point I made to kyear2 yesterday was proved in this test. If an attacking batsman had scored the runs that Kallis made, South Africa would probably have lost it, so it highlights how the more defensive player can help the cause. And Kallis was injured so it was a heroic performance in both innings.

 

[Inferno]

2011/12 not 2012/13. I was referring to last year's series
I havent yet included the current series.
kallis had a terrible 2008..btw (he was looking like he was in a decline)
Since you are conveniently highlighting decisions going against him, I might as well point out that he was lucky to get a 100 at gabba after being caught off a marginal no-ball much earlier. And this match australia's attack has been depleted...(this is at best an ok attack atm without the leading bowler pattison).
he was lucky to get his 2 tons against pakistan too. he was caught plumb both times. I can go on.... individual performances in cricket are heavily reliant on luck!!!
He has proven nothing new. we all know he is a great great batsman who has had a relatively easier time.

BTW dravid, tendulkar were 38/39 when they faced aus & eng overseas.
kallis was 36 when he faced eng/ aus last year.
We'll see how he goes in a year or two at a similar age.
actually tendulkar is more like a 42 year old now given how long he has been playing. seriously needs to retire asap

The last time tendukar had a great series in terms of numbers was against southafrica, not west indies.
his batting was merely ok in england, was ok against west indies, and good against australia until the series was lost. since then he's been rubbish
Dravid was excellent in Eng, good against west indies, clueless in aus.
Ponting however has not done well or looked good for some time against good bowlers..

If we are really gonna bring up bad decisions from the past there are plenty that Tendulkar has survived as well like his only big knock in England last year. He was lucky to get that close to a hundred before Bresnan finally got him with a plumb one. And there are plenty of others that Kallis has copped too like this:
CRAP AUSTRALIAN FAIL UMPIRING- or great bowling by Andrew Bichel?? - YouTube

That's why I said I didn't wanna mention that kind of things because it happens against everyone and such and such. I wasn't trying to use it as an excuse for him. I mealy brought it up because you were trying to suggest he can only do well against weak subcontinent attacks.

And a no ball is completely a bowlers fault and they only have themselves to blame. Umpires bad decisions are different, umpires doesn't play for your opposition. It would be like asking batsmen to give every one of their runs back after being dropped. It was the fielders fault for dropping them. And Tendukar was bowled off a no ball against Siddle too last year. The only difference was that he couldn't cash in.

Yeah the attack this game was weakened without Pattinson but he was gone after the 2nd test vs India last year too. Siddle and Hilfenhaus was really all it took to trash almost the whole side after that. Harris and Starc just played a supporting role. And Kallis was batting with an injury with limited strokeplay and barely able run plus further injuring himself when running, ducking well directed short balls, and having to play balls around his injury area. I would say that plenty well makes up for it if not even more.

And if we are really gonna bring up things like befitting from weaker attacks Tendualkar only ever faced a strong Australian attack twice in the 00's and both at home. In 2003 it was just Gillespie and Lee (only once in the same match), in 2007/8 it was just Lee and the same with 2008/9, and in 2010 it was Mitchell Johnson and co. so yeah. In fact he only every really faced an ATG line up apart from those 2 only once and that was in 99 in Australia. Attacks with just Warne and a bunch of good/decent enough bowlers can hardly be called ATG.

And I don't get what Kallis having a poor 2008 is suppose mean really. Tendulkar had poor 2003 and 2006.

And this whole age thing doesn't really work with Dravid since Kallis started quite earlier than Dravid. Brush off a few early years off Kallis and he would average even more. Plus it's not like like Dravid was tearing it up in Kallis' age either. From what I have been hearing before the WI and England series was having a Ponting type run drought. Like I have been saying there is really no way to justify Dravid above Kallis no matter what way you look at it.

Tendulkar probably yes due to his longevity. Btw, Kallis is 37 now which is the same age Tendulkar started to decline in.