The Case for Kallis

[stephen]

Yes, but where would you rank him in the pantheon of great all rounders?

Above Sobers? Above Miller or Imran?

Not above Sobers, but whether I picked Miller, Imran or Kallis in an ATG team would entirely depend on the team balance.

I actually think it's silly rating all rounders all in one group. Batting and bowling all-rounders are entirely different beasts (with maybe the one exception being Watson, who seems equally good with both bat and ball).

 

[Cricketismylife]

Kallis as a pure batsman is over Ponting and Dravid now; it was close before but I think he's now ahead of them. I'm very impartial when I rate players and try and take emotion out of it, but even I am finding it difficult to rate Kallis above Sachin or Lara. If he keeps doing what he's doing for a few more years, then I will definitely have no choice but to put Kallis as higher than those 2. I'm struggling to make a case for why either Lara or Sachin are better as batsman never mind the bowling.

 

[Furball]

I'm struggling to make a case for why either Lara or Sachin are better as batsman never mind the bowling.

Their records against McGrath and Warne.

 

[kyear2]

The fact that Kallis batted for himself for years. Similarily I also don't rate Cahderpaul among the great W.I. batsmen. Yes they may have saved their teams from some defeats, but how many victories did they cost.

 

[Furball]

In Chanderpaul's case, I'm guessing none. You're seriously under-estimating how crap the West Indies have been for 10 years if you think him batting quicker would have won more games for them.

 

[Jono]

Their records against McGrath and Warne.

Interestingly enough my mate had lunch with McGrath a few days ago. Sent me this email about it:

So, during my lunch with one G.McGrath, I asked him whether there was any
batsman he ever feared bowling to.

His answer was that he didn't fear anyone but he always psyched himself up
for two batsmen in particular being Sachin and Lara. He didn't definitively
say which one he didn't like bowling to more but he went through each of
them in turn. With Sachin, he said that he found that he could get Sachin
"to do what I wanted him to do". Basically, he could pull back Sachin's
scoring rate and put him in his shell. But he said that Sachin was the most
mentally strong player he ever bowled to and so it was the hardest wicket
to get. Lara, on the other hand, was mentally fragile as per McGrath. But
Lara could never be slowed down - he had all the shots and "wanted to play
all the shots all the time". So he felt like Lara would end up giving more
chances. He rounded off by saying that his record against the two is
reflective of that - he got Sachin out 6-7 times and Lara out 15 times.

 

[Cricketismylife]

The fact that Kallis batted for himself for years. Similarily I also don't rate Cahderpaul among the great W.I. batsmen. Yes they may have saved their teams from some defeats, but how many victories did they cost.

Probably close to 0. Kallis batting for himself and being selfish is one of those things that probably isn't true and even if it is true it probably cost SA maybe once or twice in his career. That same "selfish" batting also meant that he could save many, many matches.

Chanderpaul, as GingerFurball rightly said has bailed West Indies out of hopeless situations on so many occasions it's a joke to accuse his speed of scoring as an issue to why they lost. Kallis has the most man of the match awards in history and Chanderpaul has played for a team that has mostly been 50-3 when he's come in. Even if he makes the same runs he does at a quicker speed West Indies will still end up scoring the same low score. One could argue that scoring at a quicker rate eases the pressure on the non striking batsman, but equally batting time and grinding down the opposition allows partnership building.

Fast batsman like Sehwag and Pietersen allow their team to take a draw to a win, but often can't turn a loss into a draw, like the 1st test against SA. If Pietersen had played sensibly and batted time then England could have drawn it.

Slower batsman like Chanderpaul and Kallis cannot turn a draw into a win as often as the above 2, but they can turn a loss into a draw more often than them.
The net effect is the same but the first type of player is more memorable and gets more credit due to this, even though both types of batsman are equally valuable.

 

[kyear2]

In Chanderpaul's case, I'm guessing none. You're seriously under-estimating how crap the West Indies have been for 10 years if you think him batting quicker would have won more games for them.

I have sat in Kensington many times (last time this year) when we required him to pick up the scoring to give us a chance and vs N.Z despite numerous messages from the locker room he never accelerated. Also in this last test he batted just too slowly.

 

[kyear2]

Probably close to 0. Kallis batting for himself and being selfish is one of those things that probably isn't true and even if it is true it probably cost SA maybe once or twice in his career. That same "selfish" batting also meant that he could save many, many matches.

Chanderpaul, as GingerFurball rightly said has bailed West Indies out of hopeless situations on so many occasions it's a joke to accuse his speed of scoring as an issue to why they lost. Kallis has the most man of the match awards in history and Chanderpaul has played for a team that has mostly been 50-3 when he's come in. Even if he makes the same runs he does at a quicker speed West Indies will still end up scoring the same low score. One could argue that scoring at a quicker rate eases the pressure on the non striking batsman, but equally batting time and grinding down the opposition allows partnership building.

Fast batsman like Sehwag and Pietersen allow their team to take a draw to a win, but often can't turn a loss into a draw, like the 1st test against SA. If Pietersen had played sensibly and batted time then England could have drawn it.

Slower batsman like Chanderpaul and Kallis cannot turn a draw into a win as often as the above 2, but they can turn a loss into a draw more often than them.
The net effect is the same but the first type of player is more memorable and gets more credit due to this, even though both types of batsman are equally valuable.

Well I rate match winners higher.

Not a fan of Sehwag though, more of a FTB.

 

[Inferno]

I have sat in Kensington many times (last time this year) when we required him to pick up the scoring to give us a chance and vs N.Z despite numerous messages from the locker room he never accelerated. Also in this last test he batted just too slowly.

I don't recall Windies ever being in a good enough position that would allow Chanderpaul to take some risks and play some big shots. Even if they were I don't blame Chanderpaul considering how he is so used to seeing his batsmen collapse at the other end that he just didn't feel confident enough to do it and risk getting out. Though I don't watch that many Windies series I will admit that. As for the NZ series goes If I recall he only made 1 big contribution that series and did the right by playing it safe since opposition had WI in a bother with a few early wickets and time wasn't of the issue. In fact pulling a Sehwag or Pieterson and risk giving it away would have been the dumb thing to do there. They have done that like what over a dozen times?

Kallis on the other hand is pretty much a total myth. I honestly doubt there was more than 2 or 3 times in his whole career where his SR was an issue in his team not getting a victory. In fact this whole thing about him being "selfish" didn't even start because of test cricket. It started because of an odi in 2007 against Australia at the world cup because he wasn't scoring that fast. They were chasing like 378 in 50 overs but okay. It's quite stupid to hold his odi record against him since you don't need to play that aggressively in test cricket and people wouldn't even remember it if it weren't the world cup and just some useless odi down the line.

Well I rate match winners higher.

Not a fan of Sehwag though, more of a FTB.

Yeah most your average fans do and that's why people that save matches are so underrated.

I hope your kidding because there are flat tracks in every country and every subcontinent pitch is not flat. He is more of a home track bully like Hayden that only does well in conditions they are familiar with. And that's why they are not rightly rated with the best. Doesn't change the fact they are two of the best players of spin in any conditions though.

 

[Inferno]

Their records against McGrath and Warne.

Meh, so what? Every player no matter how great has a flaw in their record part from maybe Bradman. Tendulkar has a pretty poor record against Donald and Pollock and Lara too against Waqar and Wasim.

 

[Flem274*]

Being a 5 day game, I'd be amazed if a career strike rate (bearing in mind it is just that, and will vary between games and has actually gone up over the years) of 46 or so lead to South Africa missing out on victories. I can understand people finding him boring, but you can't deny his effectiveness.

 

[Contra]

I hate Kallis, dude's been a beast against India over the last few years, and he's been getting 100's almost at will over the last few years, He has done enough to pass Ponting for me, that is of course if he doesn't start failing over the next few years.

I will add however, that Kallis hasn't faced the best bowling attacks as often as the likes of Dravid, Tendulkar and Ponting. I think that could partly be the reason why he is still rated below despite the higher average.

 

[Inferno]

I will add however, that Kallis hasn't faced the best bowling attacks as often as the likes of Dravid, Tendulkar and Ponting. I think that could partly be the reason why he is still rated below despite the higher average.

He has been playing about just as long as Ponting and even longer than Dravid so I find that hard to believe. On top of that he has done well in spinning conditions in India and Sri Lanka where the other 2 has failed. Tendulkar maybe but I don't believe that argument about 00's having weaker bowling attacks at all I just believe that it was either better batsmen or flatter decks, more towards the first. The only reason to rate Tendulkar above him is really his longevity.

Whatever the case there is now way you can rate Dravid above him any way you look at it if him not being entertaining is the reason you don't rate him highly.

 

[TT Boy]

Well I rate match winners higher.

Not a fan of Sehwag though, more of a FTB.

Kallis is some cricketer isn't he? I mean he isn't a match winner but has won the most man of the match awards by a test cricketer.

 

[centurymaker]

I will add however, that Kallis hasn't faced the best bowling attacks as often as the likes of Dravid, Tendulkar and Ponting. I think that could partly be the reason why he is still rated below despite the higher average.

yea thats probably true.
moreover, even in the last couple of years when he has been really solid, I don't think he has faced many good attacks (partly because he is a southafrican and they aren't many good attacks around).


in the last two years against good attacks-


Australia in South Africa Test Series, 2011/12
2 tests, 58 runs , 1 fifty

Basil D'Oliveira Trophy (South Africa in England), 2012
3 tests, 262 runs, 1 huge ton, 0 50s

interesting to note that he's destroyed subcontinental attacks away from subcontinent in the same period-
7 tests, close to 1100 runs, 2 200's, 4 100's, 1 50

 

[Contra]

He has been playing about just as long as Ponting and even longer than Dravid so I find that hard to believe. On top of that he has done well in spinning conditions in India and Sri Lanka where the other 2 has failed. Tendulkar maybe but I don't believe that argument about 00's having weaker bowling attacks at all I just believe that it was either better batsmen or flatter decks, more towards latter. The only reason to rate Tendulkar above him is really his longevity.

Whatever the case there is now way you can rate Dravid above him any way you look at it if him not being entertaining is the reason you don't rate him highly.

I was primarily talking about the last couple of years, not throughout their whole careers. I meant that the other three batsmen have faced Steyn, Morkel and co a fair bit while Kallis hasn't. And yeah I rate him above Dravid as well, but again it's all relative, if he goes to have a slump in the future and his average drops 2-3 runs then it again becomes debatable as to who is the better of the three.

 

[Inferno]

yea thats probably true.
moreover, even in the last couple of years when he has been really solid, I don't think he has faced many good attacks (partly because he is a southafrican and they aren't many good attacks around).


in the last two years against good attacks-


Australia in South Africa Test Series, 2011/12
2 tests, 58 runs , 1 fifty

Basil D'Oliveira Trophy (South Africa in England), 2012
3 tests, 262 runs, 1 huge ton, 0 50s

interesting to note that he's destroyed subcontinental attacks away from subcontinent in the same period-
7 tests, close to 1100 runs, 2 200's, 4 100's, 1 50

So are we pretending that 147 and 49 he scored against Australia the last test didn't happen or what?

He has done well against the same English and Australian attacks that Ponting, Tendulkar, Dravid and the rest of their teammates all failed against. Not even to mention he kind of got hard done by with 2 decision at Lords against England (happens to everyone and such and such). Dravid did well in England but was equally worse in Australia. Plus its not as if Kallis was a mug before these last 2 years either. Was averaging 55 before the Indian series I believe.

And everybody gets easy runs against easy attacks on home tracks too. The last time Tendulkar had a good series since the world cup was against WI in Indian tracks. Ponting had that one against Indian at home for like the first time since early 2010 I believe.

 

[centurymaker]

So are we pretending that 147 and 49 he scored against Australia the last test didn't happen or what?

He has done well against the same English and Australian attacks that Ponting, Tendulkar, Dravid and the rest of their teammates all failed against. Not even to mention he kind of got hard done by with 2 decision at Lords against England (happens to everyone and such and such). Dravid did well in England but was equally worse in Australia. Plus its not as if Kallis was a mug before these last 2 years either. Was averaging 55 before the Indian series I believe.

And everybody gets easy runs against easy attacks on home tracks too. The last time Tendulkar had a good series since the world cup was against WI in Indian tracks. Ponting had that one against Indian at home for like the first time since early 2010 I believe.

2011/12 not 2012/13. I was referring to last year's series
I havent yet included the current series.
kallis had a terrible 2008..btw (he was looking like he was in a decline)
Since you are conveniently highlighting decisions going against him, I might as well point out that he was lucky to get a 100 at gabba after being caught off a marginal no-ball much earlier. And this match australia's attack has been depleted...(this is at best an ok attack atm without the leading bowler pattison).
he was lucky to get his 2 tons against pakistan too. he was caught plumb both times. I can go on.... individual performances in cricket are heavily reliant on luck!!!
He has proven nothing new. we all know he is a great great batsman who has had a relatively easier time.

BTW dravid, tendulkar were 38/39 when they faced aus & eng overseas.
kallis was 36 when he faced eng/ aus last year.
We'll see how he goes in a year or two at a similar age.
actually tendulkar is more like a 42 year old now given how long he has been playing. seriously needs to retire asap

The last time tendukar had a great series in terms of numbers was against southafrica, not west indies.
his batting was merely ok in england, was ok against west indies, and good against australia until the series was lost. since then he's been rubbish
Dravid was excellent in Eng, good against west indies, clueless in aus.
Ponting however has not done well or looked good for some time against good bowlers..

 

[Black_Warrior]

I can understand that every cricketer no matter how great has weaknesses and you can find genuine criticism against anyone but pure dumb points like "Kallis bats selfishly" is just taking the piss.. This man battled such tremendous pain in order to save South Africa a test match against India 2 years ago..he batted twice in the current test match at the cost of aggravating his injury in order to save his team the test match..if that's being selfish..hail selfish players.

The one thing about Kallis which I have observed over the years is that he has improved tremendously over the years..he has changed his game and improved his skills, a hallmark of a truly great sportsman..there was a time when Kallis seemed to score those big hundreds against the Mervyn Dillons of the world and went AWOL against the McGraths or Warnes..but I think over the last few years..that has changed..He is a lot more assertive as a batsman, part of it might be the influence of his IPL stint but I find that he tends to raise his hand and score that century in big games for South Africa against quality bowling attacks...as his knock in England earlier this year or the century in the first test match here in Australia suggested.

The man now is all class!!