Best Bowling All Rounder

[kyear2]

Not really, just looking for the best overall player.

 

[Debris]

And Frank Tyson is bracketed with Simon Doull

At first glance that table seems a bit skew-wiff.

That is why I don't value peak performance as an indicator. Too many variables. At least over a long career, it must even out a bit.

 

[Migara]

I guess it comes down to Miller, Procter, Hadlee, and Imran. Since it's unfair to use Procter's Test record as a measure it seems reasonable to compare their First Class Records. Especially with respect to Procter, Hadlee, and Imran whose careers followed a similar path in era and longevity. Incidently, the higher the Batting Ave / Bowling Ave ratio the better;

Miller
Matches = 226
Runs = 4,183
Ave = 48.91
100s = 41
Wkts = 497
Ave = 22.31
5/ = 16
Batting Ave / Bowling Ave = 2.19

Procter
Matches = 401
Runs = 21,936
Ave = 36.01
100s = 48
Wkts = 1417
Ave = 19.53
5/ = 70
Batting Ave / Bowling Ave = 1.84

Hadlee
Matches = 342
Runs = 12,052
Ave = 31.71
100s = 14
Wkts = 1490
Ave = 18.11
5/ = 102
Batting Ave / Bowling Ave = 1.75

Imran
Matches = 382
Runs = 17,771
Ave = 36.79
100s = 30
Wkts = 1287
Ave = 22.32
5/ = 70
Batting Ave / Bowling Ave = 1.65


If we leave aside the intangibles like leadership, charisma, and 'impact on the game', then it comes down to a two horse race between Miller and Procter with regards to the combined task of scoring runs and taking wickets.

Miller's batting average is superb, but he is let down by his relative lack of '5 fors'. This implies to me that he would be more inclined to 'chip-in' with wickets rather than roll through the opposition's batting line-up with a 'bag-full'. His impact as a bowler is not what it should be despite an excellent average of 22.31.

Therefore, if we are looking for a highly capable No.7 or No.8 batsman who can knock-over batting sides with the ball then I would choose Procter as the most effective all-rounder.

At No.5 or No.6 it is Miller in a canter provided that the keeper at No.7 is a good batsman, and that the No.8 is also reasonable with the bat.

One of the most difficult methods to judge a player. By using those stats, Samaraweera > Proctor

247 matches, 49.32 with bat, 357 wickets @23.43. Batting/bowling averages = 2.11

 

[AndyZaltzHair]

One of the most difficult methods to judge a player. By using those stats, Samaraweera > Proctor

247 matches, 49.32 with bat, 357 wickets @23.43. Batting/bowling averages = 2.11

Clicked to see a post on Vaas

 

[watson]

One of the most difficult methods to judge a player. By using those stats, Samaraweera > Proctor

247 matches, 49.32 with bat, 357 wickets @23.43. Batting/bowling averages = 2.11

Good point - which just goes to show that you shouldn't build a monument on statistics.

However, Mike Proctor played in an era where English County cricket was packed full of stars, and therefore he played with, and against the best. His runs and wickets therefore mean something.

Andy: You've lost me

 

[Eds]

Good point - which just goes to show that you shouldn't build a monument on statistics.

You've basically just picked the most basic stats you could and then used it to show why statistics aren't suitable...

 

[watson]

You've basically just picked the most basic stats you could and then used it to show why statistics aren't suitable...

You didn't quote my qualification;

'However, Mike Proctor played in an era where English County cricket was packed full of stars, and therefore he played with, and against the best. His runs and wickets therefore mean something'.

 

[Eds]

You didn't quote my qualification;

'However, Mike Proctor played in an era where English County cricket was packed full of stars, and therefore he played with, and against the best. His runs and wickets therefore mean something'.

He also played in the South African FC competition every British winter, which would have inflated his stats.

 

[watson]

He also played in the South African FC competition every British winter, which would have inflated his stats.

Was the domestic South African comp of the 70s particularly bad?

 

[Eds]

Was the domestic South African comp of the 70s particularly bad?

Not particularly bad, but the number of quality international imports was very low for obvious reasons. As well as that, a few of the South African stars of the time, such as Barry Richards, were actually in his side.

 

[watson]

Not particularly bad, but the number of quality international imports was very low for obvious reasons. As well as that, a few of the South African stars of the time, such as Barry Richards, were actually in his side.

I guess that's why Procter currently has 3 votes and Imran 22 votes.

But let's not stop imagining how great he could have been if given a fair crack at Test match cricket.

 

[Bahnz]

This may have already been discussed, but how come Shaun Pollock is not included here? 400 wickets @ 23 and 3700 runs at 32 doesn't look too shabby.

 

[Red]

This may have already been discussed, but how come Shaun Pollock is not included here? 400 wickets @ 23 and 3700 runs at 32 doesn't look too shabby.

He'll be remembered more fondly in years to come I reckon. Lack of mongrel in his bowling makes some people remember him less than others.

Agree though, gun player.

 

[smash84]

This may have already been discussed, but how come Shaun Pollock is not included here? 400 wickets @ 23 and 3700 runs at 32 doesn't look too shabby.

haha....good point.

I don't know but he seems to miss out very often in these kind of debates

 

[Satyanash89]

During the first half to three-quarters of his career Pollock was just amazing as a bowler. I have no problem with anyone rating him above Kapil and Botham.
In a few years, people will rate him higher, dunno what it is with South African players getting underrated

 

[Prince EWS]

This may have already been discussed, but how come Shaun Pollock is not included here? 400 wickets @ 23 and 3700 runs at 32 doesn't look too shabby.

Davidson stiff as well.

If the job required was to bat eight and open the bowling (which is basically how I evisage "bowling allrounder") then I'd take Davidson and Pollock ahead of all listed bar Imran and Hadlee.

 

[watson]

Davidson stiff as well.

If the job required was to bat eight and open the bowling (which is basically how I evisage "bowling allrounder") then I'd take Davidson and Pollock ahead of all listed bar Imran and Hadlee.

Mike Procter 6/13 vs Hampshire 1977 B+H Cup - YouTube

Greenidge and Richards - no problem on this day.

 

[Prince EWS]

Mike Procter 6/13 vs Hampshire 1977 B+H Cup - YouTube

Ahh of course, highlights of one innings - which I've already seen anyway - have well and truly changed my mind on this issue. Thank you for opening my eyes with your convincing and well articulated argument.

 

[watson]

Is that possible?

Any way I wasn't presenting an argument, I presented some fun hightlights.

 

[Coronis]

He also played in the South African FC competition every British winter, which would have inflated his stats.

Sorry to necro a thread here, but as a huge fan of Procter, can't let this slide.

In actuality, his overall first class stats are ridiculously close to his record for Gloucestershire, which would include County matches and matches against touring sides surely too?

259 matches at Gloucestershire, 14441 runs @ 36.19 with 32 centuries, 833 wickets @ 19.56 with 42 5fers. 209 catches.

401 First Class matches, 21936 runs @ 36.01 with 48 centuries, 1417 wickets @ 19.53 with 70 5fers. 325 catches.