The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[watson]

Hayden is several thousand runs better than Greg Ritchie who resembled a beach ball. Bill Brown could easily slot into the vacant No.6 spot because he occasionally batted down the order for Australia, and then Hayden can blast away at the top of the order. Unless he's facing Hoggard; then he'll have to take it easy.

 

[Red]

Does not rate in that company.Interested in your ideas as to why though

I'm far from Hayden's biggest fan, but he's surely the greatest opener Qld have produced?

103 tests for an avg of 50.

And 295 FC games at an avg of 52. Great servant of his state, as they say...

You'd have to have him over Trimble? And certainly over Greg Ritchie?

 

[Red]

I'm far from knowledgable on Qld cricket, but if we're leaving out imports, I'd probably look at...


Matthew Hayden
Bill Brown
Martin Love
Peter Burge
Stuart Law
Andrew Symonds
Ian Healy/Wally Grout (either)
Tom Veivers
Michael Kasprowiczcxjkczx
Craig McDermott
Geoff Dymock

 

[fredfertang]

Eddie Gilbert?

 

[JBMAC]

I'm far from Hayden's biggest fan, but he's surely the greatest opener Qld have produced?

103 tests for an avg of 50.

And 295 FC games at an avg of 52. Great servant of his state, as they say...

You'd have to have him over Trimble? And certainly over Greg Ritchie?

Definitely not over "slammin" Sam.The Fat Cat maybe

 

[JBMAC]

Eddie Gilbert?

Only when he could get a "leave pass" from his home town.That was one of the most tragic storiea of Qld Cricket

 

[JBMAC]

The Yorkshire All Time XI is also immensely strong when one considers that England has 18 domestic teams. Plenty of very big names...

Herbert Sutcliffe
Geoff Boycott
Len Hutton*
Maurice Leyland
Darren Lehmann/Stanley Jackson
George Hirst
Wilfred Rhodes
Jonny Bairstow+
Hedley Verity
Fred Trueman
George Freeman/Bill Bowes

Yorkshire All Time XI
1- Sutcliffe.
2- Boycott.
3- Hutton.
4- Jackson.
5- Leyland.
6- Hirst.
7- Rhodes.
8- Verity.
9- Trueman.
10-Binks.
11-Bowes.

You can,t count Lehmann

 

[watson]

Definitely not over "slammin" Sam.The Fat Cat maybe

I agree as Trimble was a pretty cool player. Plus his home town of Lismore is quaint enough. I like dropping in there when I'm on my way up to Byron Bay for some R + R.

During this game he must have made Snow, Lever, Shuttleworth, Illingworth and Underwood look rather ordinary;

The Home of CricketArchive

 

[a massive zebra]

Yorkshire All Time XI
1- Sutcliffe.
2- Boycott.
3- Hutton.
4- Jackson.
5- Leyland.
6- Hirst.
7- Rhodes.
8- Verity.
9- Trueman.
10-Binks.
11-Bowes.

You can,t count Lehmann

If Jimmy Binks had been born 40 years later he wouldn't have got a game for Yorkshire.

Great keeper though.

 

[Jager]

Bombay(Mumbai) XI ..Batting at its best..bowling if the pitch spins look out..

Gavaskar
Merchant
Hazare
Tendulkar
Vengsarkar/Sandeep Patil/Ravi Shastri
Mankad
Engineer
Ajit Agarkar/Ghavri
Shivalkar
Zaheer Khan
Subhash Gupte

A magnificent XI there

 

[a massive zebra]

My turn.

World
Jack Hobbs
Sunil Gavaskar
Don Bradman*
Sachin Tendulkar
Wally Hammond
Garry Sobers
Adam Gilchrist+
Imran Khan
Malcolm Marshall
Muttiah Muralitharan
Sydney Barnes

Australia
Victor Trumper
Bob Simpson
Don Bradman*
Greg Chappell
Ricky Ponting
Keith Miller
Adam Gilchrist+
Ray Lindwall
Dennis Lillee
Bill O'Reilly
Glenn McGrath

Perhaps Morris at his best was a higher calibre batsman than Simpson. However, Morris was eventually worked out by Bedser and Simpson averaged 56 as an opener. He also brings a couple of other dimensions that Morris lacked with his great slip fielding and occasional leg spin bowling.
Davidson very unlucky to miss out and perhaps should have been selected.
O'Reilly over Warne as he was far more successful against the best players of spin of his time (av 25 vs 47)

Bangladesh
Tamim Iqbal
Shahriar Nafees
Habibul Bashar
Junaid Siddique
Rajin Saleh
Shakib-Al Hasan*
Mahmudullah Riyad
Mushfiqur Rahim+
Mohammed Rafiqie
Mashrafe Mortaza
Shahadat Hossain

Anyone but Ashraful...
Many would argue Aminul Islam deserves a place but he averaged something like 14 after their first test and was never really a consistently prolific scorer even in the Birmingham league.
I personally think Nazmul Hossain is a better bowler than Shahadat but he hasn't been given the opportunity to prove himself.

England
Jack Hobbs
Len Hutton*
Wally Hammond
KS Ranjitsinhji
Ken Barrington
Ian Botham
Alan Knott+
Wilfred Rhodes
Jim Laker
Fred Trueman
Sydney Barnes

Hutton over Sutcliffe as he prospered against better fast bowlers under a harsher LBW law.
Barrington/Compton is a marginal one. In the end went for weight of runs over someone with a modest record away from England.

India
Sunil Gavaskar
Virender Sehwag
Rahul Dravid
Sachin Tendulkar
Vijay Hazare
Vinoo Mankad*
Kapil Dev
Syed Kirmani+
Amar Singh
Erapalli Prasanna
Bhagwat Chandrasekhar

Really wanted to include Merchant and Bedi. Unfortunately Sehwag has done enough to justify selection and with Mankad a definite pick the team looks better balanced with the variety of a legspinner.

New Zealand
Glenn Turner
Stewie Dempster
Bert Sutcliffe
Martin Crowe*
Martin Donnelly
Chris Cairns
Daniel Vettori
Richard Hadlee
Ian Smith+
Shane Bond
Jack Cowie

John Reid overrated IMO.

Pakistan
Saeed Anwar
Hanif Mohammad
Mohammad Yousuf
Javed Miandad
Inzamam-ul-Haq
Imran Khan*
Wasim Akram
Saqlain Mushtaq
Wasim Bari †
Fazal Mahmood
Waqar Younis

Many would select Zaheer Abbas but his record against quality pace bowling is woeful.
Abdul Qadir is a popular choice but he didn't have the bowling brain to adapt his game to unfamiliar conditions.
Mohammad Yousuf perhaps out of place at 3 but he is simply a higher calibre batsmen than the alternative options.

South Africa
Barry Richards
Graeme Smith*
Jacques Kallis
Graeme Pollock
Dudley Nourse
Aubrey Faulkner
Denis Lindsey+
Mike Proctor
Shaun Pollock
Alan Donald
Dale Steyn

Smith/Mitchell and Steyn/Adcock were close ones. Smith selected for his captaincy and toughness, Steyn for being clearly the best bowler in the world.
Tayfield has to make way for more destructive bowlers. He was a very orthodox bowler who IMO would have been no where near as destructive in the modern era of covered pitches.

Sri Lanka
Sanath Jayasuriya
Tillekeratne Dilshan
Kumar Sangakkara+
Aravinda De Silva
Mahela Jayawardene*
Roy Dias
Thilan Samaraweera
Chaminda Vaas
Rangana Herath
Asantha De Mel
Muttiah Muralitharan

Atapattu is the popular choice as opener but he was a notoriously bad starter and actually averaged just 32 against the top 8 teams.
Had difficulty splitting De Mel and Malinga but went for the former as he led the attack.
Roy Dias was considered one of the most beautiful batsmen in Asia around the time of Sri Lanka's admission to Test cricket and would have scored far more runs in a stronger team.

West Indies
Conrad Hunte
Viv Richards*
George Headley
Everton Weekes
Brian Lara
Garry Sobers
Clyde Walcott+
Malcolm Marshall
Michael Holding
Curtley Ambrose
Joel Garner

Some might pick me up on opening with Richards but batsmen 2-5 are simply far higher calibre than any available opener and I'm sure King Viv would have been more than capable of adapting like Sehwag has.
No point selecting a spinner if you are going to significantly weaken your attack by doing so.
Tempted to go for Roberts over Garner as the former would bring something different to the attack while the Big Bird is arguably a replica of Ambrose. In the end I resisted the temptation as it was difficult to look past a man with a bowling average of 20.

Zimbabwe
Grant Flower
Kevin Arnott
Murray Goodwin
Dave Houghton*
Andy Flower+
Alastair Campbell
Guy Whittall
Paul Strang
Andy Blignaut
Heath Streak
David Brain

Taibu feasted on Bangladeshi bowling and his record against top 8 nations is mediocre even by Zim standards.
Strang and Blignaut over Price and Olonga for their batting.

The Rest (players not seected for their own countries All Time XI)

Herbert Sutcliffe
Arthur Morris
Neil Harvey
Denis Compton
WG Grace
Frank Worrell*
Les Ames+
Alan Davidson
Shane Warne
Hedley Verity
Andy Roberts

Most of these very unlucky to miss out on their own Countries XI.

Non Test (players not to play test cricket)
Jamie Siddons
John Langridge
Ken McEwan
Mahadevan Sathasivam
Bhausaheb Nimbalkar
Clive Rice*
Darren Berry+
Bart King
Vincent Van Der Bijl
Charles Kortwright
Rajinder Goel

Siddons - highest ever run scorer in the Sheffield Shield at the time he retired. Langridge - scored more first class centuries than any other non Test player. McEwan - Probably the best South African batsman not to get the opportunity to play Tests Sathasivam - considered by many sound judges to have been the best batsman they had ever seen. Nimbalkar - highest first class innings ever played by a non Test player. Rice - attacking batsman and fast-medium bowler with 48 centuries and 900 wickets in first class cricket. King - legendary American bowling allrounder. One of the first masters of swing bowling and the best player ever from a non Test nation. Van Der Bijl - his first class bowling record compares favourably with all the great Test bowlers of the 70s and 80s. Kortwright - one of the fastest bowlers ever. Goel - leading wicket taker in the Ranji trophy.

Pre Test (players from before the start of Test cricket)
Richard Daft
Robert Carpenter
William Beldham
Fuller Pilch
Thomas Hayward
George Parr*
Alfred Mynn
Ted Pooley+
George Freeman
John Jackson
Fred Lillywhite

Hayward over Beauclerk as he prospered in a more competitive era.
Hillyer and Willsher were unlucky to miss out on the bowling slots.
Caffyn merits consideration as an all rounder but he was a flat track bully who failed dismally on the lethal Lords wicket and his medium pace bowling lacked the penetration of the bowlers selected.

Walking Wickets (some of the worst batsmen to play Test cricket)
Mark Dekker
Imrul Kayes
Jehan Mubarak
Saleem Elahi
Louis Stricker
John Sparling
Herbert Strudwick
Bert Ironmonger
Jack Saunders
Pommie Mbangwa
Chris Martin

The Fast Men (fast scoring batsmen and very quick bowlers)
Victor Trumper
Virender Sehwag
Don Bradman
Viv Richards
Kevin Pietersen
Adam Gilchrist
Shahid Afridi
Gilbert Jessop
Frank Tyson
Shoaib Akhtar
Jeff Thomson

The Slow Men (stonewallers and tight bowlers)
Alick Bannerman
Bruce Edgar
Chris Tavare
Mike Brearley
William Scotton
Trevor Bailey
RG Barlow
Bob Taylor
Hedley Verity
Bapu Nadkarni
Alfred Shaw

 

[watson]

I lot of work there Zebs. Your World Team is one of the more interesting ones I've seen. I like it.

Having Vivian Richards open the batting is a little different, and probably one of the better ways of making room for Weekes (or Worrell if inclined) in a middle order that's already necessarily crowded with Headley, Lara, and Sobers.

 

[AndyZaltzHair]

Good post there, thumbs up

 

[smash84]

My turn.

World
Jack Hobbs
Sunil Gavaskar
Don Bradman*
Sachin Tendulkar
Wally Hammond
Garry Sobers
Adam Gilchrist+
Imran Khan
Malcolm Marshall
Muttiah Muralitharan
Sydney Barnes

Australia
Victor Trumper
Bob Simpson
Don Bradman*
Greg Chappell
Ricky Ponting
Keith Miller
Adam Gilchrist+
Ray Lindwall
Dennis Lillee
Bill O'Reilly
Glenn McGrath

Perhaps Morris at his best was a higher calibre batsman than Simpson. However, Morris was eventually worked out by Bedser and Simpson averaged 56 as an opener. He also brings a couple of over dimensions that Morris lacked with his great splip fielding and occasional leg spin bowling.
Davidson very unlucky to miss out and perhaps should have been selected.
O'Reilly over Warne as he was far more successful against the best players of spin of his time (av 25 vs 47)

Bangladesh
Tamim Iqbal
Shahriar Nafees
Habibul Bashar
Junaid Siddique
Rajin Saleh
Shakib-Al Hasan*
Mahmudullah Riyad
Mushfiqur Rahim+
Mohammed Rafiqie
Mashrafe Mortaza
Shahadat Hossain

Anyone but Ashraful...
Many would argue Aminul Islam deserves a place but he averaged something like 14 after their first test and was never really a consistently prolific scorer even in the Birmingham league.
I personally think Nazmul Hossain is a better bowler than Shahadat but he hasn't been given the opportunity to prove himself.

England
Jack Hobbs
Len Hutton*
Wally Hammond
KS Ranjitsinhji
Ken Barrington
Ian Botham
Alan Knott+
Wilfred Rhodes
Jim Laker
Fred Trueman
Sydney Barnes

Hutton over Sutcliffe as he prospered against better fast bowlers under a harsher LBW law.
Barrington/Compton is a marginal one. In the end went for weight of runs over someone with a modest record away from England.

India
Sunil Gavaskar
Virender Sehwag
Rahul Dravid
Sachin Tendulkar
Vijay Hazare
Vinoo Mankad*
Kapil Dev
Syed Kirmani+
Amar Singh
Erapalli Prasanna
Bhagwat Chandrasekhar

Really wanted to include Merchant and Bedi. Unfortunately Sehwag has done enough to justify selection and with Mankad a definite pick the team looks better balanced with the variety of a legspinner.

New Zealand
Glenn Turner
Stewie Dempster
Bert Sutcliffe
Martin Crowe*
Martin Donnelly
Chris Cairns
Daniel Vettori
Richard Hadlee
Ian Smith+
Shane Bond
Jack Cowie

John Reid overrated IMO.

Pakistan
Saeed Anwar
Hanif Mohammad
Mohammad Yousuf
Javed Miandad
Inzamam-ul-Haq
Imran Khan*
Wasim Akram
Saqlain Mushtaq
Wasim Bari †
Fazal Mahmood
Waqar Younis

Many would select Zaheer Abbas but his record against quality pace bowling is woeful.
Abdul Qadir is a popular choice but he didn't have the bowling brain to adapt his game to unfamiliar conditions.
Mohammad Yousuf perhaps out of place at 3 but he is simply a higher calibre batsmen than the alternative options.

South Africa
Barry Richards
Graeme Smith*
Jacques Kallis
Graeme Pollock
Dudley Nourse
Aubrey Faulkner
Denis Lindsey+
Mike Proctor
Shaun Pollock
Alan Donald
Dale Steyn

Smith/Mitchell and Steyn/Adcock were close ones. Smith selected for his captaincy and toughness, Steyn for being clearly the best bowler in the world.
Tayfield has to make way for more destructive bowlers. He was a very orthodox bowler who IMO would have been no where near as destructive in the modern era of covered pitches.

Sri Lanka
Sanath Jayasuriya
Tillekeratne Dilshan
Kumar Sangakkara+
Aravinda De Silva
Mahela Jayawardene*
Roy Dias
Thilan Samaraweera
Chaminda Vaas
Rangana Herath
Asantha De Mel
Muttiah Muralitharan

Atapattu is the popular choice as opener but he was a notoriously bad starter and actually averaged just 32 against the top 8 teams.
Had difficulty splitting De Mel and Malinga but went for the former as he led the attack.
Roy Dias was considered one of the most beautiful batsmen in Asia around the time of Sri Lanka's admission to Test cricket and would have scored far more runs in a stronger team.

West Indies
Conrad Hunte
Viv Richards*
George Headley
Everton Weekes
Brian Lara
Garry Sobers
Clyde Walcott+
Malcolm Marshall
Michael Holding
Curtley Ambrose
Joel Garner

Some might pick me up on opening with Richards but batsmen 2-5 are simply far higher calibre than any available opener and I'm sure King Viv would have been more than capable of adapting like Sehwag has.
No point selecting a spinner if you are going to significantly weaken your attack by doing so.
Tempted to go for Roberts over Garner as the former would bring another dimension to the attack while the Big Bird is arguably a replica of Ambrose. In the end resisted the temptation as was difficult to look past a man with a bowling average of 20.

Zimbabwe
Grant Flower
Kevin Arnott
Murray Goodwin
Dave Houghton*
Andy Flower+
Alastair Campbell
Guy Whittall
Paul Strang
Andy Blignaut
Heath Streak
David Brain

Taibu feasted on Bangladeshi bowling and his record against top 8 nations is mediocre even by Zim standards.
Strang and Blignaut over Price and Olonga for their batting

The Rest (players not seected for their own countries All Time XI)

Herbert Sutcliffe
Arthur Morris
Neil Harvey
Denis Compton
WG Grace
Frank Worrell*
LEG Ames+
Alan Davidson
Shane Warne
Hedley Verity
Andy Roberts

Most of these very unlucky to miss out on their own Countries XI.

Non Test (players not to play test cricket)
Jamie Siddons
John Langridge
Ken McEwan
Mahadevan Sathasivam
Bhausaheb Nimbalkar
Clive Rice*
Darren Berry+
Bart King
Vincent Van Der Bijl
Charles Kortwright
Rajinder Goel

Pre Test (players from before the start of Test cricket)
Richard Daft
Robert Carpenter
William Beldham
Fuller Pilch
Thomas Hayward
George Parr*
Alfred Mynn
Ted Pooley+
George Freeman
John Jackson
Fred Lillywhite

Hopeless Batsmen (some of the worst batsmen to play Test cricket)
Mark Dekker
Imrul Kayes
Jehan Mubarak
Saleem Elahi
Louis Stricker
John Sparling
Herbert Strudwick
Bert Ironmonger
Jack Saunders
Pommie Mbangwa
Chris Martin

The Fast Men (Fast scoring batsmen and very quick bowlers)
The Fast Men
Victor Trumper
Virender Sehwag
Don Bradman
Viv Richards
Kevin Pietersen
Adam Gilchrist
Shahid Afridi
Gilbert Jessop
Frank Tyson
Shoaib Akhtar
Jeff Thomson

The Slow Men (stonewallers and tight bowlers
The Slow Men
Alick Bannerman
Bruce Edgar
Chris Tavare
Mike Brearley
William Scotton
Trevor Bailey
RG Barlow
Bob Taylor
Hedley Verity
Bapu Nadkarni
Alfred Shaw

 

[Jager]

I lot of work there Zebs. Your World Team is one of the more interesting ones I've seen. I like it.

Having Vivian Richards open the batting is a little different, and probably one of the better ways of making room for Weekes (or Worrell if inclined) in a middle order that's already necessarily crowded with Headley, Lara, and Sobers.

If that's An 'interesting' XI then my world XI must be absolutely ridiculous

 

[watson]

If that's An 'interesting' XI then my world XI must be absolutely ridiculous

I remember Barry Richards batting at No.3. How did it go again?

 

[watson]

Was it?

01. Archie Jackson
02. Victor Trumper
03. Barry Richards
04. Keith Miller
05. Keith Miller
06. Keith Miller
07. Don Tallon
08. Harold Larwood
09. Harold Larwood
10. Harold Larwood
11. Hedley Verity

 

[smash84]

 

[Dan]

In fairness, if you selected an XI including 4 Keith Millers and 3 Harold Larwoods, you would never lose a game. Ever. Especially given Don Tallon will never miss a chance

 

[watson]

In fairness, if you selected an XI including 4 Keith Millers and 3 Harold Larwoods, you would never lose a game. Ever. Especially given Don Tallon will never miss a chance

Yeah, but I forgot to include Douglas Jardine so they're bound to lose because no one will have the foggiest clue where to stand or what to do. They'll probably all be wandering around aimlessly tripping over stumps and holding the bat at the wrong end. Damn!