Clash of the titans, Dhoni vs Bevan

[Migara]

Bevan - 239 (4.77 p.o)
Dhoni - 252 (5.05 p.o)

Basically dumps the deal that Infero guy makes about eras and power plays.

 

[Inferno]

A. Not sure since when teams scoring at a run rate of 4.8 started to get termed as aggressive, but that is the run rate Bevan managed batting first. Most of the time, he came down the order remember. Even at no.6 position, where he batted for majority of his career, his SR was 80 only, which suggests he couldn't really up the accelerator. Such slow-go indeed helped boost his career average though. He stayed not out 22 times out of 58 innings at no.6.

Dhoni on the other hand never really cared about averages batting first, and that shows in his SR as well, 94. Batting at no.5-7, Dhoni averages 47 but with a SR of 92. And he didn't have not outs to boost his average, just 16 out of 72 completed innings. By contrast, Bevan averaged 52 at the same positions, but with a SR of 80 and had 33 not outs (out of 87 innings).

There is absolutely no comparison between effectiveness of Dhoni and Bevan batting first. Dhoni is miles ahead of Bevan. The only comparison is in their effectiveness as good chasers. But statistics suggest that is also in Dhoni's favor.

An SR of 92 is worth only about only 87 in Bevan's era. It's seriously laughable if you are seriously trying to argue there is a street load of difference in their batting with an SR only 7 higher especially when Bevan actually still averages more. And if Bevan can stay not out that many times with an SR of just 7 less it obviously says that he is more skilled than Dhoni.

Plus if you are so fixated on not outs then Gilchrist > Dhoni which is certainly not what you think reading your posts from that thread. So that makes you a hypocrite bringing it up in this thread.

Tbh I wasn't even trying to argue that Bevan is a better 1st innings player but to suggest there is "no comparison" is just foolish to say the least. And statistics doesn't suggest that he is a better chaser at all. Just that he is more aggressive. Chasing in mostly 1's and 2's Bevan's way is much safer.

B. Precisely. But his almost complete lack of noteworthy performances in any run-rate wise tough chase (>275) shows that whereever he could not just rely on the illustrious top order to contribute and him to just knock the ball around and canter to a win, he invariably couldn't step up.

lol complete crap. I have read over all your posts. The best you have managed is to post 2-3 matches where his SR might have been a problem. There were plenty of instances where Dhoni has given it away with stupid shots.

Plus a target of 275+ would be worth more in Dhoni's era.

Regarding helicopter shot, please show me instances of how many times he threw his wicket away playing that. I suspect barring circumstances where he HAD to throw his bat around (the death overs batting first) I don't recollect him getting out playing that ever.

I'm not Robelina. I don't go around recording stupid shots played by batsmen and put it on Youtube. If you wanna see it that bad look it up. There was one just a year ago in of the limited over games in the England tour. Ganguly was saying how that shot is a complete waste of his skill set live on the commentary suggesting that he has seen him fail playing that shot a little too often.

 

[Inferno]

IIRC there was a lot of cloud around that day. You have to treat English ODIs in particular in context, they're rarely the smash-bang fests of many modern ODIs.

Dhoni's batting partner Jadeja still scored 78 at an SR of 87 with those same clouds that day. Even Ashwin played aggressively at end to give them a sort of a decent score I guess. But it was Dhoni's fault in that game for not accelerating in the game and that's pretty much what cost India the match. I guess you could cut him some amount of slack as the top order was so abysmal but 69 runs at an SR of 66 is still quite pathetic in the modern game especially when you have a another guy going so well at the other end and bat till the 44th over. Just goes to show you even Dhoni's cost his team games by being too slow which some people in here seem to think he can do with his eyes closed.

I don't agree with the bolded part. We have been playing pretty aggressively if you followed the recent WI and Aus series. Usually put up big scores on the board when batting first and chased low scores down with ease when low totals were board. Its just that our bowling has been really good these last couple of years particularly at home so we have been able to get teams out for low scores. When we actually get a good batting line up like South Africa that can stand up to our bowling they do pretty well.

 

[Inferno]

So show me Dravid, Tendulkar, Ganguly, Yuvraj and Sehwag in the scoreboard you just posted, again, please?

Sure, as soon as you tell me how that line is better than Bevan's teammates that had Ponting, Mark Waugh, Gilchrist, Martyn, Hayden, Lehmann, and Symonds and also easily clears an SR of 85.

 

[Inferno]

mental skill is a part of skill set for sure. Psychiatry is a part of medicine FFS!

Please name a quality batsman that hasn't had a mental problem for a short period of time and didn't deal with it after given enough chances. Bevan didn't give enough chances.

What bothers me most about this is the fact that we are bringing up test performances to discredit a person's ODI record. Because test cricket will tell you that Dhoni is a pretty crap player of swing bowling. One could say that the only reason he doesn't struggle with it as much in ODI is because ODI pitches hardly produces pitches these days that allows quality swing.

Lol!

Amazing argument. Quite depth and detailed I must say.

What is obtuse is that you fail to notice that Dhoni was even faster in 1st innings. Can’t make argument when you don't listen to logic.

Its funny I never accused Dhoni of not being fast in the 1st innings even for his era. Just pointed out the fact that Bevan could be quite fast as well. As far far as logic is concerned, if you actually provided some rather than arguing like the devil's advocate I would listen.

Ya! There were plenty of players who finished in a flurry despite having no power plays. Even when power plays are taken in to account by looking at the ER for the era they played, Dhoni scores faster than Bevan. Your argument falls flat on the face!

Can you prove that powerplays didn't get them to start becoming aggressive or get them in the mood? Can you prove that Dhoni's SR would be the same if it weren't for powerplays? Otherwise its that was a quite irrelevant post.

Meh! Deserves a facepalm.

Yes I'm quite glad that you realized how bad your post really was.

Meh! once more. India were finalists in SAF in 2003. And in sub continent on spinning pitches, Aussies were not too flashy as well.

Why do I get the feeling from reading some of your posts that you only hang out in forums to brag about spin?

They were miles flashier than India were against pace. And there were 10 years years of cricket during Bevan's era for FFS.

Reason for vicories were not Bevan's batting, rather Aussie bowling. Simply, put Bevan in Indian team, and he will not win half the amount of matches he has won for Australia. Put Dhoni in Aussie team, he will win additional matches to what he wins for India than now.

lol this was was worst part of your whole post. I guess the reason for Indian victories weren't Dhoni's batting rather **** bowling from the opposition.

The bolded part in particular in the most laughable of all. I could just make the claim that Dhoni would be out twice as much if he were in the Aussie team as there were no powerplays. It would have about as much merit as what you just posted.

Basically dumps the deal that Infero guy makes about eras and power plays.

Dumps what theory exactly? Batsmen score faster in today's era? Amazing discovery Einstein!

 

[Dan]

Stop with the personal attacks guys; if you want to debate this, please do so in a respectful, civil manner.

 

[Migara]

Please name a quality batsman that hasn't had a mental problem for a short period of time and didn't deal with it after given enough chances. Bevan didn't give enough chances.

You are pouting BS. Bevan had the problem against short ball throughout his career and it was customary for fast bowlers to bowl a bouncer at him to shake him up, even it was called no balls. Bevan's problem was not short term. It was long term. Bevan sucked against short stuff at international level. If it was technical or mental I don't know. But he never made it up, and that's why he never became a great test batsman.

What bothers me most about this is the fact that we are bringing up test performances to discredit a person's ODI record.

Now can you show me where did I bring test performances. Don't run away from the argument.

Because test cricket will tell you that Dhoni is a pretty crap player of swing bowling. One could say that the only reason he doesn't struggle with it as much in ODI is because ODI pitches hardly produces pitches these days that allows quality swing.

Brilliantly irrelevant.

Amazing argument. Quite depth and detailed I must say.

Easily beaten by your original arguments I would say.

Its funny I never accused Dhoni of not being fast in the 1st innings even for his era. Just pointed out the fact that Bevan could be quite fast as well. As far far as logic is concerned, if you actually provided some rather than arguing like the devil's advocate I would listen.

So what were you suggesting then?

Can you prove that powerplays didn't get them to start becoming aggressive or get them in the mood? Can you prove that Dhoni's SR would be the same if it weren't for powerplays? Otherwise its that was a quite irrelevant post.

I have no way to prove it. What I can prove is that average SR of batsmen during Dhoni's time was higher than that of Bevan due to what ever reason. And further I could prove is that Bevan's SR: Average SR of era < Dhoni's SR: Average SR of era. Taking average SR would nullify the effect of changes in game and powerplays etc. Now can you prove that banning of bouncers Bevan's SR would be the same if it weren't for bouncer banning?

Yes I'm quite glad that you realized how bad your post really was.

Why do I get the feeling from reading some of your posts that you only hang out in forums to brag about spin?

They were miles flashier than India were against pace. And there were 10 years years of cricket during Bevan's era for FFS.

l

ol this was was worst part of your whole post. I guess the reason for Indian victories weren't Dhoni's batting rather **** bowling from the opposition.

The bolded part in particular in the most laughable of all. I could just make the claim that Dhoni would be out twice as much if he were in the Aussie team as there were no powerplays. It would have about as much merit as what you just posted.

BS. Dhnoi could easily clear boundaries, even the longest of them. This fella is a beast when comes to hitting. It was Bevan who found six hitting difficult.

Dumps what theory exactly? Batsmen score faster in today's era? Amazing discovery Einstein!

I tried to say to read the post before commenting, but it has no effects on retards.

 

[Dan]

Stop with the personal attacks guys; if you want to debate this, please do so in a respectful, civil manner.

Brick wall etc. etc.

 

[Red]

I wouldn't have either of them in my all time great ODI team anyhow.

Finishing is overrated.

 

[Trichromatic]

I wouldn't have either of them in my all time great ODI team anyhow.

Finishing is overrated.

Best post in this thread.

 

[Migara]

During Bevan's time, the SR was 72.2 During Dhoni's time it's 77.7. Comparing to this, Bevan's own SR is 74.2 (which is marginally higher than for era) and Dhoni's 88.4.

The global SR of ODIs is 72.2

Adjusted SR is = Global SR * Players SR / SR of the era that player played in.

Adjusted SR for Bevan = 72.2*74.2/72.2 = 74.2
Adjusted SR for Dhoni = 72.2*88.4/77.7 = 82.1

What ever the retards spout, Dhoni has a higher SR even after considering the eras they played.

PS: Note that above calculation only considres runs scored by batsmen themselves. wides, no balls, byes, leg byes and penalties are not included. But these will only account for about 5 - 7% of the total and can consider to be same across era.

 

[Red]

The greatest finisher of all.

Finished 52 cans on a flight from Australia to England. Not a drop was left in any of them.

 

[uvelocity]

mavis murphy finished me off quite well it should be said

 

[ankitj]

From Bevan’s interview:

A lot of people blamed your failures at Test level on a weakness against the short ball. Was that fair?
I couldn't work it out at the time because I'd never really had an issue with it in the past but the more it happened, the more of an issue it became. I don't think I helped myself. I probably put too much focus on trying to play it well and gave it too much priority. I probably lacked a little belief that I could play it, even though a first-class average of 60 would suggest that it shouldn't have been a problem. I think in the end that my problems at Test level were more psychological than anything physical or technical.

 

[Red]

mavis murphy finished me off quite well it should be said

Paddy's sister.

 

[Senile Sentry]

An SR of 92 is worth only about only 87 in Bevan's era. It's seriously laughable if you are seriously trying to argue there is a street load of difference in their batting with an SR only 7 higher especially when Bevan actually still averages more. And if Bevan can stay not out that many times with an SR of just 7 less it obviously says that he is more skilled than Dhoni.

There is a streetload of difference between a SR of 80 and 94. Dhoni's SR adjusted for era might be around 90. Bevan's average is just a byproduct of his not outs and that is because he never took risks and often cost his team vital runs at the end. Hence regardless of batting mostly at 5-7, his SR was much lower than that of his peers. In other words, he wasn't even the best in his team apparently when it came to batting blind and at the death.

Plus if you are so fixated on not outs then Gilchrist > Dhoni which is certainly not what you think reading your posts from that thread. So that makes you a hypocrite bringing it up in this thread.

Comparing an opener with a middle order batsman? Also sorry to spoil your theories, but Gilly averaged 32 with a SR of 93 as against Dhoni's 47 with a SR of 94 batting first. Next try please.

Tbh I wasn't even trying to argue that Bevan is a better 1st innings player but to suggest there is "no comparison" is just foolish to say the least. And statistics doesn't suggest that he is a better chaser at all. Just that he is more aggressive. Chasing in mostly 1's and 2's Bevan's way is much safer.

Safer, yes, but effective when the targets were tough enough? No. Bevan would've struggled big time had he been playing in the current Australian team.

lol complete crap. I have read over all your posts. The best you have managed is to post 2-3 matches where his SR might have been a problem. There were plenty of instances where Dhoni has given it away with stupid shots.

Go back a few posts where I listed about 18 instances where Bevan & Aus had to face a stiff target, and tell me out of those 18, how many Bevan positively contributed for a win. I found one against SA and that was it.

Plus a target of 275+ would be worth more in Dhoni's era.

Not really, if one pro-rates the average scores of their respective eras, it would be around 289.

I'm not Robelina. I don't go around recording stupid shots played by batsmen and put it on Youtube. If you wanna see it that bad look it up. There was one just a year ago in of the limited over games in the England tour. Ganguly was saying how that shot is a complete waste of his skill set live on the commentary suggesting that he has seen him fail playing that shot a little too often.

Surprisingly you seem to authoritatively state Dhoni has thrown away his wickets many number of times with his helicopter shot, but cannot even quote an instance. Dhoni's record as a chaser is out there to see for everyone, when he batted through India's innings in a chase, he ensured every single time India won.

 

[Ikki]

What ever the retards spout, Dhoni has a higher SR even after considering the eras they played.

Ridiculous. No one was saying Bevan scores as fast as Dhoni, the point was that comparing it to SRs these days is unfair. Bevan's SR was perfectly fine for his time, and in the first innings was actually pretty fast.

 

[benchmark00]

mavis murphy finished me off quite well it should be said

Poor quality avatar change.

 

[Senile Sentry]

Ridiculous. No one was saying Bevan scores as fast as Dhoni, the point was that comparing it to SRs these days is unfair. Bevan's SR was perfectly fine for his time, and in the first innings was actually pretty fast.

Actually it wasn't.

His SR was on par with the global SR for batsmen 1-7 batting first. That included the likes of Kenya, Bangladesh, etc as well remember.

 

[uvelocity]

Poor quality avatar change.

I'll rearrange your face